Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
unaltered shots
Page <<first <prev 6 of 12 next> last>>
Jan 16, 2024 13:16:10   #
MJPerini
 
I'm with @ Larry Page on this one....
There seems to be a great tendency here to place more emphasis on Production than on the PICTURE.
However, having said that, in digital photography, "Unaltered" is pretty hard to come by.
RAW files are not an Image format and can't be viewed until de-mosaicing and conversion to a viewable format by software. JPEG's are processed for several parameters of your or some engineer's design in the camera.
Kodachrome is gone. (and also had it's own Look & 5-6 stops of DR)

In forums like this where recreational photographers mix happily (usually) with highly accomplished photographers, the whole spectrum is on display. If you enjoy what you are doing, it is a win. Where we get in trouble is when we start prescribing right and wrong ways to other folks.
If 'Unaltered" is your goal set your camera to all Zeroes in the JPEG conversion and shoot away
If Pleasant is your goal leave the factory presets and shoot JPEGs. (plenty of folks do this and enjoy it)
If you choose to shoot RAW, you have the most robust and expressive system photography has ever been available. You get to choose how you want to interpret the image, you can choose strict reality (as YOU define and remember it) or you can interpret an image any way you want. It is your image.

Whatever you choose to share, be advised , some will like it, some won't, and some will feel the need to tell you why they don't like it or how THEY would have handled it. It is all fair game once you put things out for comment.
My view is that you can't worry about it. Do work that pleases YOU. Enjoy yourself.

At my first gallery show (a long time ago) the owner gave me some great advice regarding other people's comments. You either have to believe ALL of them, or NONE of them. Believing the Praise will make you a slave to those , and Believing the bad ones will fill you with self doubt.
Do what you do"
Make work you are proud of and have fun.
If you get stuck, ask a question, there are lots of nice folks who will offer help.
Good luck

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 13:19:23   #
Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
The Larrys 😜🤪

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 13:53:53   #
OldCADuser Loc: Irvine, CA
 
I do some minor cropping, adjusting the contrast, and occasionally play with the light and shadow areas. And in rare situations, I'll remove extraneous items which detract from why it was that I took the picture in the first place.

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2024 13:56:29   #
Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan
 
pdsdville wrote:
I don't understand why this is such a volatile subject. I alter most of my photos with the thought that my cameras did not see what I saw. This is my opinion. Why should anyone care whether someone can take a "great" photo and not alter it or not? I think that if someone continually takes photos that don't need altering they must be a pretty damn good photographer, better than me. Then again what do I care, or why should I care? Why should anyone care? Maybe it's just someone looking for an argument or looking for attention.
I don't understand why this is such a volatile sub... (show quote)


Absolutely.

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 14:02:45   #
Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan
 
10MPlayer wrote:
Yes, it is true. RAW is all the data collected by the camera on the sensor. It is almost always flat, boring, lacking in contrast and not reflective of the true colors in the scene. It needs to be processed to bring out the saturation, shadows and correct hues otherwise it looks dull and muddy. Take a few shots of the same scene, some in JPEG and others in RAW and see the difference for yourself.


Open raw files in the camera manufacturer's software, for example Canon raw files in Canon's Digital Photo Professional, and they will not "look flat, boring, lacking in contrast and not reflective of the true colors in the scene" nor "dull and muddy."

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 14:07:24   #
Blenheim Orange Loc: Michigan
 
burkphoto wrote:
I have no idea. However, I know a significant portion of all serious photographers use raw capture at least part of the time.

Raw files contain all the dynamic range of the signal recorded by the sensor. That's about 15 stops on a full frame camera, 14 stops on an APS-C camera, and 13.5 stops on a Micro 4/3 camera, assuming you are working with the latest 2022-2024 cameras.

JPEG files can contain about 5.5 stops of dynamic range, regardless of the sensor size. Photo paper can reflect about a 5-stop dynamic range. So the challenge becomes, "How much dynamic range do I need to compress, either in the camera's JPEG engine, or in post production, to avoid the appearance of burned out highlights and plugged up shadows?"

If you can control the scene brightness range (often a BIG IF), JPEGs will give you all the detail you need. In a studio, give me two umbrellas, a strip soft box, and a background light, and I can light a portrait so that every bit of a subject's face, hair, and clothing has detail in it. Outdoors, in bright sun, I'll need fill flash, and/or reflectors, to do that, because the scene contrast (scene brightness range) is too great for the camera to "stuff into" the narrow dynamic range of a JPEG.

But if I record raw files, my post-processing software (Lightroom Classic) can "pull up" the tones in the shadows, and "pull down" the tones in the highlights, so they are not too dark or too light to be seen in a print or on a monitor. I also have MUCH better control over white balance, if I didn't set that correctly at the camera. The overall exposure latitude I have is a few orders of magnitude greater, as well.

Think of it this way: If you made slides on film, you had about 1/3 of an f/stop OVER-exposure latitude, and maybe 2/3 of an f/stop UNDER-exposure latitude. To get a good result, you needed to be very good at metering the scenes you photographed, because the processed film IS the slide. Slide film processing is rigidly controlled. All color correction had to be done with filters over the camera lens. All exposure correction had to be done via lighting control and exposure control.

If you made color negatives on film, you had about two stops of overexposure latitude, and about 1.33 stops of underexposure latitude that could be recovered with a scanner. A good professional lab technician could adjust color balance (white balance) and exposure, and when digital scanners came along, we could adjust contrast, too.

So advanced photographers know all this, and when image quality is a high priority for us, we choose to work in raw capture mode, or at least hedge our bets by using raw plus JPEG capture.

For high volume work under controlled lighting conditions, such as school students' portraits, parts catalog photography, and situations where absolute perfection is not a requirement, JPEG capture is often a preferred approach, especially for professionals who know what they are doing, and who can save lots of time and money with it.

For events, such as action sports, weddings, corporate events, run-and-gun photojournalism, and other unique, non-repeatable, priceless moments, raw capture is preferred.

However, there are times when capturing JPEGs and raw files is the best approach. If I need great files for printing later, I need raw, but if I also need JPEGs to project in a slide show at the end of the event, I will record BOTH raw and JPEG, and sort them separately on my laptop for later processing and immediate projection. If I cover an event and need files for an editor, ASAP, I'll also capture raw and JPEG, and send a few JPEGs selected on my laptop, via the hotspot in my iPhone.

I hope that answers your question.
I have no idea. However, I know a significant port... (show quote)


Thanks, Bill. Good post.

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 14:27:19   #
JimGray Loc: Albuquerque, New Mexico
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
A camera sees the world differently than the human eye, so who cares what the camera saw?



Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2024 14:37:10   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Bill_de wrote:
If you have followed Larry for any amount of time, you should know that Larry likes to speak for the majority. What majority that is, he never explained.



---


I do not presume to speak for anyone else. Ever. I do find the responses on this forum fascinating and quite often quite puzzling. My signature also clearly states that I do not give one whit about anyone else doing anything the way that I do.

As an obvious member of the minority here, I also find it fascinating to repeatedly accused of claiming to speak for some mysterious majority. Perhaps there is some pervasive but hidden insecurity lurking among the ranks.

For this discussion, I suggest a little bit of patience to see what the results of the current survey might show. Folks way beyond the limits of "the usual suspects" are responding.

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 14:52:35   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Photograhy was not born yesterday! Lots of folks pine for the olden days. If you ever were into shooting transparency films like Kodachrome or many of the Ektachrom vers or other E-6 films you are quite familiar with SOOTC. If you faltered in exposure or composition there was little you could do. Exposure bracketing was commonplace.

If you were a user of negative films, the idea was to produce the best possible negative to enable easily achievable high-quality prints. Contact prints or "proofs" were produced without major correction but FINE PRINTTIH usually involved some minor manipulation or tweaking in the enlarging and printing part of the process. Even the work of the most precise photograhers was usually no string out of the camera.

I apply the same philosophy to digital imaging. That is, make the cleanest and technically and artistically best possible file and perft or twek image as required in post-processing. I never want to "re-shoot" every image in the darkroom and I certainly do not want to do that on the computer. Sloppy shooingt and and radical editig are tedious, time-consuming, uneconomical, and usually will not yied the best quality. A bit of local "dodging and burning, adjustment in contrast, and saturation are not signs of poor camer work- these manipulations were always somehow part of the process.

Nowadays, the are so many folks who become preoccupied with certain technicalities- they are splitting hairs. Some worry about the fact that images are indeed processed in the camera. The count pixels. are paranoid about noise and all kinds of artifacts, optical aberrations, diffraction, and more. It is a wonder they have time and mental space to make creative images.

At the end of the day, my advice is don't join a photo-cult. The final product is what counts. A poorly crafted image is a poorly crafted image whether the fault is in the original file or bad post-processing. I might say that insisting on SOOTC is a macho thing but the ladies are also into it as well! My happy approach is to make the best possible file so that major alterations are not required. We used to say "Put it on the negative". Now we can say "Put it on the file"! And...if you mess up and fluff an important shot, it's good to know that post-processing may come to the rescue.

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 15:20:15   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
Another can of worms. Is raw an image that you can look at and tell whether it's flat, contrastless, and not reflective of the scene's colors?

My position is that it is not an image because to produce an image from raw data takes application of parameters that may not be included in the raw data file metadata. e.g. you have a wide range of white balance settings (temperature AND tint) that will affect the colors in the resulting image. Until that processing occurs, I don't believe the raw data can really be described as an image. Yes, there is software that will show you a bitmap of red, green, and blue dots, but I don't call that a real image because it doesn't look like what the final demosaiced image looks like.

Going back to CamB's post I don't believe that 'Most here shoot RAW.' There is another thread working on that with a poll (although I don't really think forum polls can really be accurate because participation is not controlled). The rest of CamB's post I consider accurate.
Another can of worms. Is raw an image that you can... (show quote)


No. You cannot judge a raw file directly without some sort of processing. (Well, you can view it, but you wouldn't be able to tell ANYTHING meaningful.)

You can get any color you like from a well-exposed raw file or a well-exposed color negative. It has to be processed to an INTERPRETATION of what was recorded.

Some do, some don't. Maybe ask if it matters, unless their images look awful?

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 15:29:52   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Raw isn't just a file format, it's a way of life. We see the world not through our viewfinder, but in the output of our software. In this sense, the purpose of RAW is an act of the imagination.

Reply
 
 
Jan 16, 2024 16:00:09   #
pithydoug Loc: Catskill Mountains, NY
 
bigruckus wrote:
I am fairly new at this site and am just curious as to whether or not there is a section for unaltered shots with maybe the exception of cropping? Thanks.


Every shot is altered bar none unless you still have Kodac brownie.

Those thinking that shooting diital in .JPG is unaltered(aka SOOC) is simply false. Every digital camera presents each photo in .JPG whcih has been run through a propriety translator meaning ALTERED. Raw is just a bunch of data unreadable unless and unless changed to jpg, png, tiff ,xzy.

Unaltered, I.e. simply means your camera's translator with your settings. Not sure what that even translates to in quality. Ideal light will get you a better photo in general, but who the heck always has perfect light, whatever perfect light is?

Thank you but I'll pass.

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 17:06:49   #
skatz
 
User ID wrote:
Nope. Its like cutting a matt.


Cropping is altering the shot. Otherwise, why would some film photographers deliberately show the clear edge of their negs in the print, proving the image is unaltered by cropping and exactly what was in the viewfinder/groundglass when the exposure was made. 99% of my digital photos can be improved with some cropping, but that percentage drops significantly for my medium or large format film photos.

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 17:21:24   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
skatz wrote:
Cropping is altering the shot. Otherwise, why would some film photographers deliberately show the clear edge of their negs in the print, proving the image is unaltered by cropping and exactly what was in the viewfinder/groundglass when the exposure was made. 99% of my digital photos can be improved with some cropping, but that percentage drops significantly for my medium or large format film photos.


Cropping is sometimes necessary. An image requires composition. Composition is not always something that fits into a standard aspect ratio. To present the artistic image as the artist envisaged it sometimes (often) requires cropping. In that case the uncropped image is not the image that the shot was taken to present.

So if you can take a shot that you envisage that has the exact aspect ratio as the camera you use, then cropping is alteration.

I would argue that changing contrast, color balance, brightness, is alteration. Cropping is usually not. Adding/subtracting elements of the image is transmogrification.

My opinion.

Reply
Jan 16, 2024 17:31:27   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
skatz wrote:
Cropping is altering the shot. Otherwise, why would some film photographers deliberately show the clear edge of their negs in the print, proving the image is unaltered by cropping and exactly what was in the viewfinder/groundglass when the exposure was made. 99% of my digital photos can be improved with some cropping, but that percentage drops significantly for my medium or large format film photos.


I think the obvious question regarding cropping is, "who the hell cares whether an image was composed in the viewfinder, or in post-production?"

What matters are the viewers' reactions to the image. If cropping supports impact better than the viewfinder composition, I crop. If it needs no cropping, okay, but I probably didn't give myself (or my client or editor) enough options!

Anyone who has worked for an editor or a designer understands that attitude. Cropping is often necessary for a lot more reasons besides, "the photographer blew it." An image made for publication has to fit the purpose and the layout. If it includes distracting elements that are not part of the story, often a modest crop can eliminate them. If the horizon line needs adjusting to correct balance (or to throw it off for editorial effect), there should be allowance for that (i.e.; compose loosely). If there will be a full bleed photo with text overlay, composition needs to account for the presence of that text. If the image is for teaching or training, and callouts will be added within the image, space for those captions and arrows may be specified. Those are just a few reasons to crop.

A major reason to crop may be that an image can stand as is, but can be more dramatic, or more illustrative, or fit a different space, if given a thoughtful crop.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 6 of 12 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.