JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

The only thing that makes any sense with respect to time and space IS a belief in infinity. If you believe things are finite, then they have a beginning and an end. So that begs the question of what was there before, and what is there after (referring to time); or where did matter come from before it existed; and what is on the other side of the physical boundary of a finite universe.

Heck, you believe in God and an afterlife… is there a finite duration to your time playing harp?

INFINITY is such an amazing concept!

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

It’s unfortunate that you are so set in your thinking that you won’t entertain a discussion that challenges your beliefs.

So I will only ask you a few simple questions that you should at least consider even for yourself if you won’t reply.

1) Is Heaven infinite in both time and space?

2) Where do new souls come from, or do you believe in reincarnation?

3) Assuming no reincarnation, is the number of souls finite? If so, why? Is Heaven (or Hell) limited in capacity?

4) As I asked earlier, is the Afterlife infinite or does it come to an end?

5) Assuming you accept infinite Afterlife, then you accept infinity as a concept, and life from a soup of chemical compounds is possible.

Racmanaz Loc: Sunny Tucson!

"It’s unfortunate that you are so set in your thinking that you won’t entertain a discussion that challenges your beliefs."???

/\ /\ /\ /\ Isn't this exactly what YOU have been doing yourself?

MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama

1. I have NO Idea what, or where Heaven even is. I do believe the concept of LOVE prevails...

2. Of course I believe in reincarnation... Everything else seems to be cyclical. It seems logical... The early Christian church believed also, but folks abused the concept. All the great religions of the world believe in the concept.

3. Of Course I accept infinity as a concept... Heaven and Hell has been misrepresented... Whether you believe or not, NO loving god would sentence anyone to eternal fire...

4. Refer to #2 answer... Hierarchy to greater realization. " I am That I Am "

5. Of course... This system was devised to operate under certain rules which we call physics, chemistry ,etc... Nothing happens with a magic wave of the hand. But, as the Masonic order likes to say, the Grand Architect prevails...

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

If you will indulge me, I would like to hear your thoughts on reincarnation (purpose, mechanism, results).

Some religions teach that reincarnation involves a hierarchy of "status" (not sure what the right word is; maybe what you said in reply #4) and that if you are good in your lifetime you will come back to a better life. But if you have not been good you will come back in a worse life. For example, maybe if you hate dogs and kick them you will come back as a dog so that you can get kicked around as punishment for your past life.

But I have never heard of anyone who has been reincarnated and can say what they were in a previous life. So what is the purpose of reincarnation -- that offers either reward or punishment for a past life -- if one has no awareness of that past life? I have no idea if my present life is punishment or reward for my past life. So far I am doing quite well, so I guess I was pretty good before, too!

Further, if you believe in reincarnation, is EVERYONE on earth a reincarnation of a previous being/soul? Or are new souls being created? And back to the infinity issue, is there a limit to the number of souls? Or the number of reincarnation cycles?

See, the more I question concepts like reincarnation the less I find any logic. And yes, "faith" overrides "understanding." But for me, faith is a copout for a painful truth, or for a rejection of a logical conclusion that goes against one's (irrational) belief.

Your answer to #5 is a bit puzzling and unclear... are you agreeing that life could have occurred spontaneously out of a chemical soup, given the fullness of infinite time? Or did God create Heaven and Earth in 6 days about 6000 years ago?

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

No, Rac, that is NOT what I have been doing. You are constantly looking for proof of concepts. Yet you put "faith" above "reasoning." If you could "prove" to me what you "believe" then I might change my mind on some issues.

I am arguing that many of the concepts of religion (including creation) are illogical if you dig into them. Science is based on observing phenomena, formulating a theory, making a prediction/hypothesis based on that theory, validating that theory within limits (interpolation), and then postulating further possibilities (usually extrapolated). Nothing that I have discussed with you is illogical if you accept that the universe is infinite in both time and space... because setting limits on either raises logical questions that have illogical answers (or no answers).

You did not answer my question to you... do you believe in an infinite afterlife, or is it finite? If infinite, then you have to allow for life to evolve from spontaneous chemical reactions under specific conditions regardless of how small that probability. On the other hand, if you believe the afterlife is finite, then what happens AFTER Heaven shuts down?

Here are a few things that still puzzle me:

1) Our concept of time is that it is irreversible... but why?
2) Does time truly exist, or is it something we dreamed up to explain/define irreversibility (entropy increasing)?
3) Is the universe volume ("space") infinite, with a finite amount of matter/energy in it? Or is the volume of space AND the volume of matter infinite? (Remember, making either of these finite raises unanswerable questions.)

Racmanaz Loc: Sunny Tucson!

"You are constantly looking for proof of concepts. Yet you put "faith" above "reasoning." If you could "prove" to me what you "believe" then I might change my mind on some issues."

Wrong again John, I'm not looking for proofs of concepts, I am simply presenting the facts. It is you that is looking at "probabilities" to defend your belief "faith" that have no observable scientific evidence to support your narrative. There is an unmeasurable amount of observable evidence that only life begets life and that non living matter has zero observable evidence of producing "begetting" life and conscious mind. You are accusing me of something that YOU are doing yourself. You presented no observable facts or examples of non living matter begetting life and consciousness. I don't think I even mentioned anything about my "faith" on this thread at all. But, I will answer one of your questions which is do I believe in an infinite afterlife. Yes I do, but I do not believe in an infinite past but not in a physical form, but that doesn't mean it's not that way, there is no way of knowing. So my believe in an infinite afterlife does not require me to to give room for life the theory that life evolved from spontaneous chemical reactions under specific conditions regardless of how small that probability.

The concept(s) of creation is not an illogical conclusion to hold. One only needs to observe what is occurring now all over the globe and that is all complex creations, for example, computers, aircraft, electronic devices, automobiles, computer programs..ect all have been created by an conscious intelligent mind. You have never observed anything but a mind that created such complexities, you ignore this and decided to grasp at the minutely low probabilities that life spontaneously from a fictional primordial soup story billions of years ago. Want to talk about the possibilities of life forming from that "primordial soup" some 750 million years after Earth was formed?? That breaks down your theory about infinite time and space. None of what you claim has any observable scientific evidence whatsoever. So it breaks down to is you hanging your belief on "probabilities" while I am embracing observable facts.

MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama

Just as a quick reply to your last paragraph, No, creation did not occur in 6 days... The first rule of communication is speaking to your audience, and an audience of sheep herders would not understand the concept of millions of years and mass having reached a certain density before lighting up as a star... As in Genesis, the first mention of light was the " Concept " of light... Actually, if you accept that days actually refer to immense time periods, everything falls into place... NOW, I have to attack my first cup of Joe while I read some of your other concerns... Please do not get me wrong, I am not preaching and not being pompous... We all have our belief systems based on life experiences.

MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama

Okey, cup of Joe down... As to your 3rd. paragraph, I believe the purpose of reincarnation is the " eternal evolution of the soul ". And no, it is NOT in chronological order... Karma, I don't believe is direct tit for tat... But, since we live in a dualistic world, a life of luxury will be balanced at some point by the experience of the other side of life... Realization will increase with self aware understanding which is only going to occur with experience... We will never fully understand the " Totality " of the infinite as that is illogical... Even the Hindu's do not discuss Brahman, as he is unfathomable, hence we have Shiva and Vishnu. BTW, Quantum entanglement is just a glimpse into the TOTAL connectivity in ways we do not understand of something incomprehensible... OK, Time for a second cup !

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

I think quantum entanglement, along with colour/spin/class and other hard to describe quantum properties, are just as incomprehensible to the average person — or even educated people — as trying to explain millennia to sheep herders. We have a limited vocabulary to describe things, and our interpretation hinges on the common understanding of words. Take spin as a label for a property of electrons; do they actually “spin” on an axis like planets? Axial alignment, spin direction and precession of the axes in a magnetic field seem to work. A string has tensile strength but no compressive strength; is a string the best physical analogy for discussing vibrational states which define the properties of matter, without reference to tension AND non-compression?

I had a physics professor who I really admired for having his feet solidly on the ground. His specialty was electronics and acoustics, not quantum physics (which I had great difficulty grasping, too). This prof said quantum mechanics can prove that electrons are green and the size of basketballs.

MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama

Basicly I believe in infinity and the interconnectivity of EVERYTHING in ways we do not understand... Gee, We do not have 15 pages of insults as is typical on the hog.

Kraken Loc: Barry's Bay

Would you like some?

MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama

I have had 3 cups now... but please, it's Saturday.... Can't we just listen to the NEWS... !

Racmanaz Loc: Sunny Tucson!

How about listening to music and forgo listening to the News today? :)