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Sensor size - full frame v aps-c v mft
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Nov 25, 2023 15:55:10   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
swimweb1 wrote:
There are advantages and disadvantages of each. I like the size of APSC and its lens better. I also like the extra reach. I have a Fujifilm X-T3 paired with a Tamron 18-300, which from a full frame standpoint is 27-450. I don't print large photos, so any extra resolution of full frame, as they say, is not an issue with me. The one issue that is important is low light performance. I keep hearing that full frame gives you an extra stop. So I find that I get acceptable photos to ISO 6400 when then processed with Topaz DeNoise. I would love to have higher ISO. When I see or hold the size and weight of the full frame cameras, I say not for me. I am 72. No thanks to the extra weight. Plus when I compare cost, the full frame cameras are more expensive. Attached is a recent photo taken with an APSC camera.
There are advantages and disadvantages of each. I... (show quote)


They don't get any better than this AFAIC ⭐✨🏆✨⭐

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Nov 26, 2023 10:18:58   #
xt2 Loc: British Columbia, Canada
 
Hal Masover wrote:
For the last decade I've been a devoted user of full frame DSLRs. It's been quite a love affair. dozens of weddings and portraits, commercial work and thousands of miles of travel, lightpainting and astrophotography. My digital photography started in earnest with a Sony NEX6, which is an APS-C camera. From there I graduated to a Nikon D750 and what a difference! Boom. But in the last decade it seems that APS-C cameras have greatly advanced. I'm currently trying out the Nikon Zfc, which is a 2022 APS-C camera and comparing to my D750, it's really hard to tell any difference. I've tried low light, high ISO, etc. No, I don't want to buy the Zfc. It simply doesn't have the amount of control I'm used to and it's hard to hold in my hand. But here's my questions - are today's APS-C sensors equivalent to full frame or are they just equivalent to my 10 year old D750? Are new full frame cameras better at handling noise? How about dynamic range? And my second question is, if APS-C has gotten so much better, what about MFT? In other words, does sensor size matter anymore? Because my 72 year old body wouldn't mind lighter gear on my shoulders but I also don't want to go backwards in quality and capability. Comments?
For the last decade I've been a devoted user of fu... (show quote)


You won’t go backwards.

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Nov 26, 2023 13:25:29   #
Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV
 
Boris77 wrote:
I do not shoot wildlife (other than visitors to my city yard), and have no commitment in the game to use or show those pictures. I feed the critters, so I cheat anyway.
I stalk humanoids, with or without their blessings. Since the people that used to pay me moved on to needing video too, all the pressure is off, and I am fully retired.
I sleep in mornings.
Boris


There is something to be said for sleeping in! I'm fully retired too and always thought that meant sleeping in! But there is so much going on in the wildlife world early in the morning that I don't want to miss, that I can't justify sleeping past day break! Or much earlier, depending on where I will be shooting and how far I will be travelling.
I'm strictly an amateur, this is a hobby for me. But I'm very dedicated to the pursuit of the best photos that I can get. And I do everything possible to enable me to get them. And then I take a mid-day nap!

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Nov 26, 2023 14:18:06   #
dbrugger25 Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Hal Masover wrote:
For the last decade I've been a devoted user of full frame DSLRs. It's been quite a love affair. dozens of weddings and portraits, commercial work and thousands of miles of travel, lightpainting and astrophotography. My digital photography started in earnest with a Sony NEX6, which is an APS-C camera. From there I graduated to a Nikon D750 and what a difference! Boom. But in the last decade it seems that APS-C cameras have greatly advanced. I'm currently trying out the Nikon Zfc, which is a 2022 APS-C camera and comparing to my D750, it's really hard to tell any difference. I've tried low light, high ISO, etc. No, I don't want to buy the Zfc. It simply doesn't have the amount of control I'm used to and it's hard to hold in my hand. But here's my questions - are today's APS-C sensors equivalent to full frame or are they just equivalent to my 10 year old D750? Are new full frame cameras better at handling noise? How about dynamic range? And my second question is, if APS-C has gotten so much better, what about MFT? In other words, does sensor size matter anymore? Because my 72 year old body wouldn't mind lighter gear on my shoulders but I also don't want to go backwards in quality and capability.

Comments?
For the last decade I've been a devoted user of fu... (show quote)


I have a FF, 30mp Canon 5D-MK4, a 45mp Canon R5 and a 30mp Canon R7. the R7 has a crop factor of 1.6. The size of the sensor pixels on the R7 is much smaller than on the R5. That makes my telephoto lenses capable of great detail. It also makes them function as though they were 1.6 times longer. For normal field photography, up to about 100 mm, I prefer the R5. For bird and wildlife and some sports photography, I prefer the R7. The R7 pixel size is 3.19um. The R5 pixel pitch is 4.30 um. If the R7 were a full frame camera with the same pixel pitch it would have a 72mp sensor.

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Nov 26, 2023 20:38:11   #
Hal Masover Loc: Iowa and Florida
 
Peteso wrote:
I am 77 and I use MFT and FF, depending upon what I am shooting and how long I have to tote around heavy gear. There’s no question that there is a quality difference, but my Olympus cameras with Pro lenses are still excellent. As to APS-C, if you’re looking to downsize, IMHO, APS-C is the worst of both worlds.



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Nov 26, 2023 21:18:50   #
Hip Coyote
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
A home run is worth more than two doubles. So is a full frame camera.


It is not the size of the wand but the magic contained within it...or so I've tried to convince myself.

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Nov 26, 2023 21:29:18   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
A pound of luck isn't worth half as much as a full-frame camera.

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Nov 26, 2023 22:25:45   #
Hal Masover Loc: Iowa and Florida
 
MrPhotog wrote:
Each year the ability to make better chips improves, and the quality of smaller sensors does too. Moore’s law isn’t perfect, (every 18 months you get twice the capacity for half the cost) but it certainly illustrates the trend.

While you are specifically mentioning formats common to pro and amateur cameras, consider also the trend to even smaller sensor formats which are buried in cell phones. Not only are the tiny sensors very good, but the computers they are attached to get better every year, too.

I think pictures from last year’s 12 mp cell phones are as good as pictures from 12 mp cameras of a decade or more ago. And future year’s cell phones will be even better.

A hundred years Leica showed that with higher resolution film, and higher resolution lens designs, a 35 mm camera could produce images on par with what a 4x5 press camera could produce. In a much smaller and lighter system.

Some of the improvements in small format were picked up with larger format gear and emulsions, but obviously the market shifted to the smaller size. Cell phone cameras are now that smaller size.

You’ll probably see something similar play out over the years with digital. Innovation in tiny sensors for cell phones will be applied to larger sensors used in cameras.

The question you might have asked would have been about even larger sensors. Look at the other end of the spectrum, too: there aren’t a lot of physically big sensors on the market at any cost.

I think Lots of people are waiting for a cheap 4x5 sensor with even 1 mp per square inch—the equivalent of a 20-year-old 1.5 mp full frame camera—but multiplied over 20 times the area. It would be a 20 mp large format sensor. And if they could make the 60 mp chips (about 40 mp per square inch) then there would be something between 1000 to 1200 mp on a 4x5 format!

I think the bigger chips are just too difficult to make currently. I guess they find more flaws as the chip size increases, which makes it more expensive to produce bigger sensors.
Each year the ability to make better chips improve... (show quote)


I was originally going to put medium format in my post along with the others but though I've thought about medium format, I'm not interested in the increased weight and price. So I kept my question to what I might be interested in actually buying.

Your point about cell phones is worth a few comments. Maybe the incredible advances in cells will find their way into dedicated icl cameras. I hope so. Apple, Samsung, etc have much more design and engineering capabilities than Canon, Nikon, etc With the possible exception of Sony. The advances keep coming fast and don't look likely to slow down soon. But I can't imagine spending all day shooting with one. They have zero ergonomics. They're good enough in a pinch but it's hard to do serious work with them. But then, they aren't intended for serious work so that makes sense.

Thanks for your very thoughtful comments

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Nov 26, 2023 23:01:16   #
mizzee Loc: Boston,Ma
 
My 75 year old body loves my mft Olympus em1 mark III. I traded in my Nikon in 2016 and never looked back. I’m taking better images and better quality and a significantly lighter load!

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Nov 27, 2023 02:03:18   #
User ID
 
swimweb1 wrote:
There are advantages and disadvantages of each. I like the size of APSC and its lens better. I also like the extra reach. I have a Fujifilm X-T3 paired with a Tamron 18-300, which from a full frame standpoint is 27-450. I don't print large photos, so any extra resolution of full frame, as they say, is not an issue with me. The one issue that is important is low light performance. I keep hearing that full frame gives you an extra stop. So I find that I get acceptable photos to ISO 6400 when then processed with Topaz DeNoise. I would love to have higher ISO. When I see or hold the size and weight of the full frame cameras, I say not for me. I am 72. No thanks to the extra weight. Plus when I compare cost, the full frame cameras are more expensive. Attached is a recent photo taken with an APSC camera.
There are advantages and disadvantages of each. I... (show quote)

Solid proof that in broad daylight whatever gear you used seems to work at least more than plenty good enough for posting a UHH forum thumbnail.

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Nov 27, 2023 10:37:19   #
neillaubenthal
 
Ysarex wrote:
Uncropped the D850 sensor will produce less noisy images than the D500.


I don’t specifically know if that’s correct or not…depends on the pixel size and sensor generation. As stated in other replies…for a riven sensor gen smaller pixels will produce more noise. And even assuming that your statement is correct (and I’m not arguing that either way as it isn’t relevant to this comment)…the uncropped 850 image will have a smaller size in the frame of the subject. If you crop so that the bird is the same size in the output frame…which is highly likely…the 850 gets more noisy…and I’m too lazy to figure out which would win at that point…but since the 850 is frequently said to have a 500 inside of it the difference at DX crop is likely small at 1:1 and me to to nonexistent at output resolution. I have no idea whether the 2 bodies have the same sensor gen or not…but if they don’t then this is an apples to pears comparison and is relatively useless in the which format to shoot debate.

I shoot FF Z8 and Z9 currently…upgraded from APS-C for features, not format…and a Z7II body is almost identical in size and weight to a D500 anyway. As an older guy…eventually I will want to carry less and at that point MFT would actually be a bigger weight reduction…and for screen only output with equivalent quality lenses and body features one would be very hard pressed to see any difference in the actual output. Our local blowhard’s statements that only a certain brand of FF MILC can possibly take a good photo are just trolling…the best camera for person X or Y depends on many factors that are much more important than frame size.

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Nov 27, 2023 10:56:08   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
neillaubenthal wrote:
I don’t specifically know if that’s correct or not

It is correct. The uncropped larger sensor will be less noisy.
neillaubenthal wrote:
…depends on the pixel size and sensor generation.

It depends more on the total area of the sensors.
neillaubenthal wrote:
As stated in other replies…for a riven sensor gen smaller pixels will produce more noise.

That'll be read noise which is close to insignificant compared with shot noise and shot noise is sensor area dependent. The noise difference is apparent even if you use the same sensor by comparing an Fx camera in FX mode with itself in DX mode -- the DX mode image is noisier.
neillaubenthal wrote:
And even assuming that your statement is correct (and I’m not arguing that either way as it isn’t relevant to this comment)…the uncropped 850 image will have a smaller size in the frame of the subject. If you crop so that the bird is the same size in the output frame…which is highly likely…the 850 gets more noisy

I did say the 850 uncropped.
neillaubenthal wrote:
…and I’m too lazy to figure out which would win at that point…but since the 850 is frequently said to have a 500 inside of it the difference at DX crop is likely small at 1:1 and me to to nonexistent at output resolution. I have no idea whether the 2 bodies have the same sensor gen or not…but if they don’t then this is an apples to pears comparison and is relatively useless in the which format to shoot debate.

I shoot FF Z8 and Z9 currently…upgraded from APS-C for features, not format…and a Z7II body is almost identical in size and weight to a D500 anyway. As an older guy…eventually I will want to carry less and at that point MFT would actually be a bigger weight reduction…and for screen only output with equivalent quality lenses and body features one would be very hard pressed to see any difference in the actual output. Our local blowhard’s statements that only a certain brand of FF MILC can possibly take a good photo are just trolling…the best camera for person X or Y depends on many factors that are much more important than frame size.
…and I’m too lazy to figure out which would win at... (show quote)

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Nov 27, 2023 18:52:45   #
markwilliam1
 
*

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Nov 27, 2023 20:14:45   #
tripsy76 Loc: Northshore, MA
 
Hal Masover wrote:
For the last decade I've been a devoted user of full frame DSLRs. It's been quite a love affair. dozens of weddings and portraits, commercial work and thousands of miles of travel, lightpainting and astrophotography. My digital photography started in earnest with a Sony NEX6, which is an APS-C camera. From there I graduated to a Nikon D750 and what a difference! Boom. But in the last decade it seems that APS-C cameras have greatly advanced. I'm currently trying out the Nikon Zfc, which is a 2022 APS-C camera and comparing to my D750, it's really hard to tell any difference. I've tried low light, high ISO, etc. No, I don't want to buy the Zfc. It simply doesn't have the amount of control I'm used to and it's hard to hold in my hand. But here's my questions - are today's APS-C sensors equivalent to full frame or are they just equivalent to my 10 year old D750? Are new full frame cameras better at handling noise? How about dynamic range? And my second question is, if APS-C has gotten so much better, what about MFT? In other words, does sensor size matter anymore? Because my 72 year old body wouldn't mind lighter gear on my shoulders but I also don't want to go backwards in quality and capability. Comments?
For the last decade I've been a devoted user of fu... (show quote)



I loved my Fujifilm X-T5 and X-H2s. They produce beautiful images and are significantly better than they used to be. As far as comparing them to Full Frame, I would still give it to full frame for noise, dynamic range, etc. But you can be a professional with aps-c. M43 is also much better, but I don’t know much about photo there just video.

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Nov 27, 2023 20:34:55   #
Hal Masover Loc: Iowa and Florida
 
tripsy76 wrote:
I loved my Fujifilm X-T5 and X-H2s. They produce beautiful images and are significantly better than they used to be. As far as comparing them to Full Frame, I would still give it to full frame for noise, dynamic range, etc. But you can be a professional with aps-c. M43 is also much better, but I don’t know much about photo there just video.


I met a big dollar wedding photog in LA that uses Fuji. I don't know which model. Used it in night photography too. I get a bit picky about noise. When the Nikon D500 came out a friend of mine bought it. We were shooting a ballet. He was working for the ballet company and I was working for the theater. He handed me the D500. I popped a card out of my D750 and put it into his D500, and replaced his lens with mine so the only variable would be the camera body and on the card I had shots of the same ballet on both the D500 and the D750. Unquestionably the D750 handled the low light conditions better than the D500. What I've learned from this discussion is that all the camera sensors have advanced and that the best quality is still going to be in the larger sensor but the advances just might be enough for me to now be happy with APS-C. Before I send Nikon their Zfc back, I have a night photosession scheduled with a model for this weekend. Just have to put the Zfc on the tripod and compare it to my D850 under the same conditions.

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