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How do you think the great photographers of the past would feel about todays new technology
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Oct 19, 2023 08:33:39   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
leftj wrote:
Why does it matter?


If the title gives you an idea of what this thread was about and you don't think it matters, why did you read it?

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Oct 19, 2023 09:56:13   #
DavidPine Loc: Fredericksburg, TX
 
PJMImage wrote:
How do you think the great photographers of the past would feel about today's new technology, particularly the new artificial inteligent systems that becomming widely available these days?


I think they all would have an iPhone of sure.

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Oct 19, 2023 09:59:29   #
leftj Loc: Texas
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
If the title gives you an idea of what this thread was about and you don't think it matters, why did you read it?


How can I have an opinion if I didn’t read it to see what it’s about?

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Oct 19, 2023 10:48:52   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
RodeoMan wrote:
Good point, I wonder what they are using. Wasn't there a move toward Sony a few years ago by many of the major news services?


At the time I, believe it was the AP that switched, it was because Sony was the only company that made a pro level journalism camera that did pro level video.

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Oct 19, 2023 10:55:16   #
claytonfm
 
I like all the above thoughtful answers. I think dedicated photographers whether pro or amateur are interested in producing a work of art and, at least in my case, as easily as possible. The images I have produced over the decades have improved markedly from film through various digital cameras. I am a better artist than photographer in visualizing what I want to produce and understanding that, what all visual artists know, it's about capturing the light reflected off whatever you taking a picture of and, I my case at least, digital cameras are so much better at capturing the light. Plus there is, for me, the added bonus of very easy post processing, something I could not do with film because of cost of equipment, lack of space, etc.

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Oct 19, 2023 11:55:26   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Something not yet mentioned is that as the tools become more and more powerful, as they can assume more and more of the "work" of creation, the creation becomes easier. More and more people can do it. It gets "commonized."

Some of the attraction of photography is that is is an opportunity to learn to do something that few other people can do (or take the time to learn to do). How are going to feel about photography and all of the time and effort you have devoted to learning how, when it gets to the point that everyone else can suddenly do the same thing without all the effort and work? Amateur radio operators went through the same quandary when the rules were changed to reduce, then eliminate the requirement to know International Morse Code. The discipline survived, the hobby survived, but there was great heartburn among older hams who did have to learn it.
i
I am interested to know a little more about the motivation of those who are vocal advocates of the new technology. Is it to make photography more accessible to those with less or little aptitude for it? Is it to enable you to achieve something that you have not been able to learn how to do? Are you unable to understand how to achieve proper exposure, but still want to do photography? Is it just the idea of being able to play around with something new? Is it something else? Are you just lazy, but still want to make pictures?

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Oct 19, 2023 12:14:36   #
RodeoMan Loc: St Joseph, Missouri
 
leftj wrote:
Why does it matter?


Perhaps because curiousity matters? But if it doesn't matter to you, then why are you inserting yourself into the conversation?

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Oct 19, 2023 12:15:10   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
larryepage wrote:
Something not yet mentioned is that as the tools become more and more powerful, as they can assume more and more of the "work" of creation, the creation becomes easier. More and more people can do it. It gets "commonized."

Some of the attraction of photography is that is is an opportunity to learn to do something that few other people can do (or take the time to learn to do). How are going to feel about photography and all of the time and effort you have devoted to learning how, when it gets to the point that everyone else can suddenly do the same thing without all the effort and work? Amateur radio operators went through the same quandary when the rules were changed to reduce, then eliminate the requirement to know that mode of communication. The discipline survived, the hobby survived, but there was great heartburn among older hams who did have to learn it.
i
I am interested to know a little more about the motivation of those who are vocal advocates of the new technology. Is it to make photography more accessible to those with less or little aptitude for it? Is it to enable you to achieve something that you have not been able to learn how to do? Are you unable to understand how to achieve proper exposure, but still want to do photography? Is it just the idea of being able to play around with something new? Is it something else? Are you just lazy, but still want to make pictures?
Something not yet mentioned is that as the tools b... (show quote)


Why are you worried about 'how' other people create their art? Express their vision? A lot of the AI stuff so far is miserable, no better than a human working with their expensive camera they really don't know how to use. But, really great work, phones, AI, etc, is really great, and who care how it was created?

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Oct 19, 2023 12:24:21   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Why are you worried about how other people create their art? Express their vision?


Because art has always been associated with skill. If you remove the need for the skill, is it still art, or just nice pictures?

It's the same question that was raised a few years ago when the norm became that everyone who played in the recital or entered a contest got a trophy.

It's the same flawed judgement that tells kids "the big lie:", "You can be anything you want to be." (You can't be an astronaut if the height limit is 5'11'' and you are already 6'1" in high school. You can't be a horse racing jockey, either.)

If art is universal, is it still art?

If they are just nice pictures, are you still OK with that?

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Oct 19, 2023 12:38:52   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
larryepage wrote:
Because art has always been associated with skill. If you remove the need for the skill, is it still art, or just nice pictures?

It's the same question that was raised a few years ago when the norm became that everyone who played in the recital or entered a contest got a trophy.

It's the same flawed judgement that tells kids "the big lie:", "You can be anything you want to be." (You can't be an astronaut if the height limit is 5'11'' and you are already 6'1" in high school. You can't be a horse racing jockey, either.)

If art is universal, is it still art?
Because art has always been associated with skill.... (show quote)


Art is associated with skill. Actually, that's more 'no' than 'yes' to that assertation. People concerned about barriers to entry, those people are concerned about 'skill', sometimes just the money needed to cross that barrier. Everyone else is just concerned about whether they like the art or not. Everyone else -- the great unwashed masses.

The flip side of Art is associated with skill is probably the Dunning-Kruger effect. If we step away from art to trade crafts, I can accept the need for minimum-level skills, say to charge money as a 'qualified professional'. But, to just create 'art' for your own personal fun of it, why or when has 'skill' or 'technical knowledge' ever stopped anyone but the complainers? Museums are filled with art from both the trained and the untrained, all with some level of 'skill' as needed to yield those results. The individual decides what appeals to them as an individual.

Imagine if 'skill' was a barrier to someone buying a D850? We wouldn't have Nikon as a for-profit company with that barrier of entry ...

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Oct 19, 2023 13:01:07   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Art is associated with skill. Actually, that's more 'no' than 'yes' to that assertation. People concerned about barriers to entry, those people are concerned about 'skill', sometimes just the money needed to cross that barrier. Everyone else is just concerned about whether they like the art or not. Everyone else -- the great unwashed masses.

The flip side of Art is associated with skill is probably the Dunning-Kruger effect. If we step away from art to trade crafts, I can accept the need for minimum-level skills, say to charge money as a 'qualified professional'. But, to just create 'art' your own personal fun of it, why or when has 'skill' or 'technical knowledge' ever stopped anyone but the complainers? Museums are filled with art from both the trained and the untrained, all with some level of 'skill' as needed to yield those results. The individual decides what appeals to them as an individual.

Imagine if 'skill' was a barrier to someone buying a D850? We wouldn't have Nikon as a for-profit company with that barrier of entry ...
i Art is associated with skill. /i Actually, tha... (show quote)


Skill manifests in multiple ways. That is evident at school, where everyone has to create something. Obviously, some do a more skillful job than others, but they all DO something.

Creating art requires both ideation and execution. The bottom of the scale of ideation is stealing or copying. The bottom of the scale of execution is more complicated. Dale Chihuly hasn't actually created any glass with his own hands in a long time. Is the glass from his studio still his? I guess maybe so. Could it exist without him? Good question. Lots of folks have been working very clisely with him for a long time. I'm betting that most of the time, they know exactly what to do brfore he rven tells them. Is what comes out art? I'm not 100% sure, but lots of people including us, really like it.

I think maybe there are two kinds of art. Theres the art that someone would buy, and there's the art that no one would buy.

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Oct 19, 2023 13:04:45   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
larryepage wrote:
Skill manifests in multiple ways. That is evident at school, where everyone has to create something. Obviously, some do a more skillful job than others, but they all DO something.

Creating art requires both ideation and execution. The bottom of the scale of ideation is stealing or copying. The bottom of the scale of execution is more complicated. Dale Chihuly hasn't actually created any glass with his own hands in a long time. Is the glass from his studio still his? I guess maybe so. Could it exist without him? Good question. Lots of folks have been working very clisely with him for a long time. I'm betting that most of the time, they know exactly what to do brfore he rven tells them. Is what comes out art? I'm not 100% sure, but lots of people including us, really like it.

I think maybe there are two kinds of art. Theres the art that someone would buy, and there's the art that no one would buy.
Skill manifests in multiple ways. That is evident ... (show quote)


And then there's the people seeking to define 'art' by who should and should not be creating it ...

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Oct 19, 2023 13:04:49   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
larryepage wrote:
Because art has always been associated with skill. If you remove the need for the skill, is it still art, or just nice pictures?

It's the same question that was raised a few years ago when the norm became that everyone who played in the recital or entered a contest got a trophy.

It's the same flawed judgement that tells kids "the big lie:", "You can be anything you want to be." (You can't be an astronaut if the height limit is 5'11'' and you are already 6'1" in high school. You can't be a horse racing jockey, either.)

If art is universal, is it still art?

If they are just nice pictures, are you still OK with that?
Because art has always been associated with skill.... (show quote)


No, skill is about craftsmanship. Art is about vision.

Reply
Oct 19, 2023 13:07:33   #
leftj Loc: Texas
 
RodeoMan wrote:
Perhaps because curiousity matters? But if it doesn't matter to you, then why are you inserting yourself into the conversation?


Because he asked me “how do you think”

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Oct 19, 2023 13:15:10   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
No, skill is about craftsmanship. Art is about vision.


Yes. Art is self-expression. That implies communication. The question, though, is communication with whom? Just for the artist, or for communication to or with others?

To Paul and Jim:

Self-expression may be accomplished by making a pile of spit wads on the table. But if i want someone else to take notice and pay attention, I'm probably going to have to do something at least a little bit more sophisticated. Perhaps mashing down on the pile to give some shape and texture. Maybe even using a different medium.

So yes, skill is needed.

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