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Wide angle vs telephoto
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Oct 10, 2023 16:47:46   #
User ID
 
Wallen wrote:
Yes, more zoom is needed. It's because the full frame eyepiece do not have 1x magnification. They magnify only about 3/4X
If it was 1x magnification, then it will be 50mm thereabout.

.

And yet more irrelevant charts.
Toadally pissing into the wind.

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Oct 10, 2023 17:00:30   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
User ID wrote:
If he had shut off the power he would not have been zapped, same as you shut off the water for certain plumbing jobs or shut off the fuel for certain mechanical jobs. engineering background not needed. Just common sense.

It depends on what you are doing. ‘Common sense’ misleads people a lot, such as in applications of Physics.

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Oct 10, 2023 17:12:33   #
User ID
 
MrPhotog wrote:
A 50 mm lens would be an extreme wide angle on 4x5 film.

Schneider makes a 47 mm Super Angulon and a 58 mm Super Angulon.

The image are on a sheet of 4x5 film is 95x120 mm, the diagonal is 153 mm.

Wide open the 47 mm Super Angulon projects a cone of light which cover a 110 mm circle. That would leave the corners unexposed. However, stopped down to f/22 the image circle expands to 166 mm, which will cover 4x5 film. The angle of view is comparable to (roughly) a 16 mm lens in 35 mm full frame use. Since you are limited to shooting at f/16 or f/22, and have a very narrow range of possible movements ( tilt, shift, rise, fall) this lens is used much more with smaller film formats. The 65 mm focal length is used more often and is made by several brands.

But this makes me ponder.

Oscar Barnack built his small camera for shooting landscapes while hiking in the mountains. He found the 4x5 equipment ( or the metric equivalent) that he was using just too bulky, heavy and a pain to carry. While a ‘normal’ lens for 4x5 would be 152 mm (6”), most cameras came with a 135 mm lens. Barnack chose a double (movie) frame format of 24x36 mm. This has an aspect ratio of 1:1.5. In contrast, the 4x5 image was 1:1.25, or somewhat boxier. With the 35 mm film he got about 15% more horizontal mage area. With a 50 mm lens on the 24 x36 image he could capture pretty close to the horizonal area that he would have gotten with a 135 mm lens on a 4x5. Assuming he used the full image area. If he cropped of the ends to make 8x10 prints he lost that. I have never read anything to suggest that Barnack entertained such thoughts, though.
A 50 mm lens would be an extreme wide angle on 4x5... (show quote)


Whether its canonized anywhere in Leica holy scripture or not its very obvious that Barnack cobbled together the first camera from parts bins and 50mm was just something on hand that was close enough for rock & roll.

24x36 likely derives from adapting gearing from parts bins as well. Theres just nothing well considered about his use of 24x36mm. Some of my first 35s were 24x32 and 24x24. Your lengthy dissertation assumes too much.

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Oct 10, 2023 22:59:18   #
MrPhotog
 
User ID wrote:
Whether its canonized anywhere in Leica holy scripture or not its very obvious that Barnack cobbled together the first camera from parts bins and 50mm was just something on hand that was close enough for rock & roll.

24x36 likely derives from adapting gearing from parts bins as well. Theres just nothing well considered about his use of 24x36mm. Some of my first 35s were 24x32 and 24x24. Your lengthy dissertation assumes too much.


Hardly holy scripture, but Barnack was interviewed numerous times over the years, and in rhe 30s to the 70s Leica put out a new book every few years. There are a lot around. And they are good reading.

Leitz parts bins at the time would have held microscope parts. There just weren’t any other 35 mm still cameras, other than the Ansco (Agfa) Memo, which was 18x24 mm, what was called single frame at the time, and we call half-frame now. When you are making something from scratch you need to make all the parts yourself, or draw up plans and send those to a machine shop. 50 mm lenses in the early days were rare. How times have changed.

50 mm lenses were not plentiful for enlargers, either. And a 35 mm neg needs to be enlarged. So it became common for people to unscrew the camera lens and use it on their enlarger. Why buy another expensive lens for the enlarger when you have one on hand? Apparently, So many people did this that 39 mm became the default mount size for other brand’s enlarger lenses.

I’m surprised he didn’t opt for a 24 x 30 frame size. That would have been the same proportions as the large format films—proportional to 8x10. I can’t recall reading any quotes from him about why he picked this shape. It could be there are some in German.

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Oct 11, 2023 00:06:19   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
User ID wrote:
And yet more irrelevant charts.
Toadally pissing into the wind.


Pissing in the wind? Maybe to people who do not understand it or willing to accept being wrong.
I initially thought your response was a personal attack to escape your predicament, but then how can I when you are showing stupidity as you could not even distinguish between a specification sheet and a chart, dismisses a theorem, and worse yet believes that working on an electrical circuit is just common sense?

You are forgiven

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Oct 11, 2023 02:16:15   #
User ID
 
MrPhotog wrote:
Hardly holy scripture, but Barnack was interviewed numerous times over the years, and in rhe 30s to the 70s Leica put out a new book every few years. There are a lot around. And they are good reading.

Leitz parts bins at the time would have held microscope parts. There just weren’t any other 35 mm still cameras, other than the Ansco (Agfa) Memo, which was 18x24 mm, what was called single frame at the time, and we call half-frame now. When you are making something from scratch you need to make all the parts yourself, or draw up plans and send those to a machine shop. 50 mm lenses in the early days were rare. How times have changed.

50 mm lenses were not plentiful for enlargers, either. And a 35 mm neg needs to be enlarged. So it became common for people to unscrew the camera lens and use it on their enlarger. Why buy another expensive lens for the enlarger when you have one on hand? Apparently, So many people did this that 39 mm became the default mount size for other brand’s enlarger lenses.

I’m surprised he didn’t opt for a 24 x 30 frame size. That would have been the same proportions as the large format films—proportional to 8x10. I can’t recall reading any quotes from him about why he picked this shape. It could be there are some in German.
Hardly holy scripture, but Barnack was interviewed... (show quote)

Yes, theres plenty of scripture. All needs to be taken with a bag of salt. Parts bins are what they are. Both a 50mm lens and various other parts would be from cine parts bins. The really original component would be the cloth shutter, not found in such miniature scale in any other cameras back then.

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Oct 11, 2023 07:17:58   #
imagextrordinair Loc: Halden, Norway
 
User ID wrote:
Never found that to be the case. The wider lens takes in more of the car, but it still looks completely normal.


Most of those look closer to 50mm, a zoom lens I'm guessing... 24 will generally be distorted in length and width depending how you compose in most cases, but 24 is the low end limit to something lifelike.

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Oct 11, 2023 10:08:09   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
ken_stern wrote:
Here is my quick take --
Though the real pros in this forum will provide a more exact optical if not scientific explanation --
All of this is based on the 35mm format

The 50mm is generally considered the angle of view of human eyesight when the eye is at rest --
Even though it is not quite
So every angle of view below 50mm can be considered a wider angle of view while all above 50mm can be
& is considered telephoto


Perspective and perceived angle of view make the 50mm lens on a 24x36 frame "normal" or similar to how the human eye-brain will perceive it. In reality human vision has almost 180° with both eyes, or 130°. But the brain mainly "focuses" on what's in the center. There are gender differences with women extending their visual focus to a much wider view, and men tending to use the center 46°. There is a theory that this difference is physiological - with men evolving to be able to see movement and evaluate speed (closing distance if chasing or being chased) and women evolved to be able to see and recognized patterns subtle color differences in cluttered scenes. Think of cavemen going on a hunt or being hunted, and women foraging in the forest/jungle for nuts, berries and leaves to eat. TMI I know, but interesting to me at least.

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Oct 11, 2023 10:15:41   #
srt101fan
 
Gene51 wrote:
Perspective and perceived angle of view make the 50mm lens on a 24x36 frame "normal" or similar to how the human eye-brain will perceive it. In reality human vision has almost 180° with both eyes, or 130°. But the brain mainly "focuses" on what's in the center. There are gender differences with women extending their visual focus to a much wider view, and men tending to use the center 46°. There is a theory that this difference is physiological - with men evolving to be able to see movement and evaluate speed (closing distance if chasing or being chased) and women evolved to be able to see and recognized patterns subtle color differences in cluttered scenes. Think of cavemen going on a hunt or being hunted, and women foraging in the forest/jungle for nuts, berries and leaves to eat. TMI I know, but interesting to me at least.
Perspective and perceived angle of view make the 5... (show quote)


Good to see you back, Gene!

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Oct 11, 2023 13:14:42   #
MrPhotog
 
User ID wrote:
Yes, theres plenty of scripture. All needs to be taken with a bag of salt. Parts bins are what they are. Both a 50mm lens and various other parts would be from cine parts bins. The really original component would be the cloth shutter, not found in such miniature scale in any other cameras back then.


Cloth focal plane shutters were around and in use on the early Graflex cameras, starting with Speed Graphic models in 1912. They fit formats from 3x4 to 5x7. Cutting one down would not be a problem.

However, since those were used with cut film they were simply slits cut in the fabric. You could cock the shutter with no film in the camera, or with a darkslide covering the film. With roll film one would put a lens cap on to prevent exposure from light passing through the open slit while the shutter was cocked. To avoid the need to block the light with the lens cap, a different type focal plane shutter, one which was closed when the shutter was cocked, and only opened for the exposure. This is also called a self-capping shutter.

Canon and Nikon copied the Leica shutter in their early cameras. Zeiss made one which moved vertically, which was duplicated by a Japanese firm and, with titanium leaves, used by Nikon, and now, a lot of the digital cameras, including digital Leicas.

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Oct 11, 2023 13:36:43   #
srt101fan
 
Longshadow wrote:

If something looks 20 feet away to my eye and the XXmm makes it look <about> the same distance in the camera,
to me that's "normal".
Simple.

If it looks closer in the camera, that's telephoto, if it looks farther away, that's wide angle.
Don't need no charts.
img src="https://static.uglyhedgehog.com/images/s... (show quote)


This says it all; nuthin’ left to argue about.

Except, maybe, the origin of the 50mm figure. Of course that’s been addressed. But some folks just don’t like the answers…..

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Oct 11, 2023 13:50:39   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
srt101fan wrote:
This says it all; nuthin’ left to argue about.

Except, maybe, the origin of the 50mm figure. Of course that’s been addressed. But some folks just don’t like the answers…..

Well, with my pholosophy it doesn't matter who/why/what to substantiate the nomenclature.
But I suppose inquiring minds want to know......

There's no pleasing everyone.
(I've heard that somewhere before.)

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Oct 11, 2023 14:55:07   #
User ID
 
wmurnahan wrote:
Normal is not 50 mm in all formats, only FF or 35, 35mm is normal for crop sensor. Most camera manufactures do an equivalent thing where they say it is a 50 mm equivalent, because as has been stated that is the size lens on a FF camera that gives you the same angle, not field of, view of the human eye, meaning when you take your eye from the view finder, the things in the scene will be the same size as you were seeing in the view finder.


(Download)

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Oct 11, 2023 15:06:28   #
User ID
 
MrPhotog wrote:
Cloth focal plane shutters were around and in use on the early Graflex cameras, starting with Speed Graphic models in 1912. They fit formats from 3x4 to 5x7. Cutting one down would not be a problem.

However, since those were used with cut film they were simply slits cut in the fabric. You could cock the shutter with no film in the camera, or with a darkslide covering the film. With roll film one would put a lens cap on to prevent exposure from light passing through the open slit while the shutter was cocked. To avoid the need to block the light with the lens cap, a different type focal plane shutter, one which was closed when the shutter was cocked, and only opened for the exposure. This is also called a self-capping shutter.

Canon and Nikon copied the Leica shutter in their early cameras. Zeiss made one which moved vertically, which was duplicated by a Japanese firm and, with titanium leaves, used by Nikon, and now, a lot of the digital cameras, including digital Leicas.
Cloth focal plane shutters were around and in use ... (show quote)

Other than their vertical scanning, a Copal shutter is TOADALLY unrelated to the Zeiss shutter. No evolution or connection at all.

The Zeiss is really the same design as the Leica, a roller curtains shutter. OTOH, the Copal is a multibladed sweeping shutter, a way of compacting a rotary slit cine type shutter. Waaaaaay different. Olympus also built such a cine-like shutter, in the Pen-F SLR, with X-synch at all speeds. Very fast !

---------------------------------------------

I suspect that you read a lot, a Good Thing, but its short of actually using and knowing certain things directly, first hand. So please take no offense at my "tidying up" some of your info. Its great that youre sharing what you read. Very few people read anymore :-(

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Oct 11, 2023 16:55:15   #
Ava'sPapa Loc: Cheshire, Ct.
 
Gene51 wrote:
Perspective and perceived angle of view make the 50mm lens on a 24x36 frame "normal" or similar to how the human eye-brain will perceive it. In reality human vision has almost 180° with both eyes, or 130°. But the brain mainly "focuses" on what's in the center. There are gender differences with women extending their visual focus to a much wider view, and men tending to use the center 46°. There is a theory that this difference is physiological - with men evolving to be able to see movement and evaluate speed (closing distance if chasing or being chased) and women evolved to be able to see and recognized patterns subtle color differences in cluttered scenes. Think of cavemen going on a hunt or being hunted, and women foraging in the forest/jungle for nuts, berries and leaves to eat. TMI I know, but interesting to me at least.
Perspective and perceived angle of view make the 5... (show quote)


Yeah, where have you been? I put it out there last week and asked if anyone had heard from you. It's been a while.

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