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Use of Raw and JPEG
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Aug 19, 2023 10:47:55   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
burkphoto wrote:
unfollowing...


I don't think the tag team will notice!

At some point you'd expect them to go to Private Messaging to avoid looking so ridiculous.

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Aug 19, 2023 10:55:32   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
selmslie wrote:
The demosaicing of the Bayer array is simpler than for an X-Trans array.

It's interesting to note that in the update at the bottom of this discussion of the X-Trans III processing the author says, "UPDATE: roll on to November 2020 and I’m now enjoying Fuji’s fabulous Bayer sensor in the recently released XT200. To my eyes this bests X-Trans every time." You have to wonder why the XT200 is so hard to find. Maybe Fuji doesn't want to admit that X-Trans may have been a colossal mistake.
The demosaicing of the Bayer array is simpler than... (show quote)

Comparing X-Trans with Bayer is of course not the topic you were previously mistaken about.

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Aug 19, 2023 11:03:50   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Bill_de wrote:
I don't think the tag team will notice!

At some point you'd expect them to go to Private Messaging to avoid looking so ridiculous.

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I tried that. Ysarex would rather turn it into a public spectacle. I have very little more to say.

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Aug 19, 2023 11:12:29   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
Comparing X-Trans with Bayer is of course not the topic you were previously mistaken about.

You introduced the problems of demosaicing the X-Trans. Nobody else really cares since those problems don't seem to show up with Bayer sensors. At least you can't demonstrate them.

Maybe you would like to start your own thread comparing X-Trans and Bayer. Get your hands on an XT200 (no relation to the X100T) and see how much better it seems to be.

From what I can see, the X-Trans experiment has been a colossal waste of money and time, almost as bad as Sigma's failed Foveon effort.

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Aug 19, 2023 11:16:25   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
selmslie wrote:
Here is a test using the 24MP Sony A7 III with a 55mm lens.

There is very little difference, if any, in the sharpness so apparently Sony's default sharpening is very close to Capture One's.

The overall look of the auto adjusted image from Capture One is very close to the JPEG SOOC.

The A7 III is, after all, a much better camera. The demosaicing of the Bayer array is simpler than for an X-Trans array.

It's interesting to note that in the update at the bottom of this discussion of the X-Trans III processing the author says, "UPDATE: roll on to November 2020 and I’m now enjoying Fuji’s fabulous Bayer sensor in the recently released XT200. To my eyes this bests X-Trans every time." You have to wonder why the XT200 is so hard to find. Maybe Fuji doesn't want to admit that X-Trans may have been a colossal mistake.
Here is a test using the 24MP Sony A7 III with a 5... (show quote)


I like the SOOC best 😁😁😁😁

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Aug 19, 2023 11:18:29   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
selmslie wrote:
I tried that.

That's false. Not in this thread or any time recently.

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Aug 19, 2023 11:25:34   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
joecichjr wrote:
I like the SOOC best 😁😁😁😁

It's a good argument for the notion that SOOC is good enough for a lot of photographers, particularly anyone who doesn't want to waste time processing or arguing about which pixel peeping result is better.

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Aug 19, 2023 11:27:32   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
selmslie wrote:
That begs the question, add or remove what contrast? Since I left clarity adjustment at 0 (also for dehaze and structure) in the C1 default version, that question is moot.

The answer is, the contrast provided primarily by the default sharpness. The defaults for Fuji and C1 were set by different people at different times. What you are seeing is that C1 simply uses a slightly higher standard than Fuji in the X100T. Every other software vendor will probably have a slightly different default than C1.

It's hard to tell how much but the resulting JPEG for the Provia STD result can be sharpened slightly more to make it the look about the same as the C1 version with its default amount setting of 140.

But there are other things in the mix. There is no straight conversion available on the camera that does not have some adjustments. The Provia STD is not a straight conversion of the raw image, just a different set of adjustment values that disagree with the default values in the C1 "straight" conversion.

If you toggle between the two results you can see that there is a clear difference between the two images when it comes to the brightness of the shadows, mid-tones and highlights. These differences are as important as any change to the default sharpening since that is easier to see details the closer you are to middle gray.

In the final analysis, if you are happy with the JPEG coming from the camera, you are done and there is no need for any additional expense and effort.

But if you are dissatisfied in any way with the camera's JPEG, editing in the camera is a PITA and not very productive. You might as well save yourself a lot of grief and shoot raw. You can get a more satisfying result quicker and easier from just about any raw editor.

If you convert the raw data on your computer and not make any changes to the result then you are happy with the standards set by your software and the image you recorded. Otherwise you need to tweak the adjustments to satisfy your own standards.
That begs the question, add or remove what contras... (show quote)


Irregardless of which beautiful photo looks best, I'd take the house in a minute ⭐✨⭐✨⭐

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Aug 19, 2023 13:17:28   #
User ID
 
burkphoto wrote:
unfollowing...

No one cares. Just weird of you to announce it. Acoarst, youre not the only Hawgster who announces. But you all look silly doing it.

Im following verrrrry superficially. I just take note of user names, and approximate length of the posts, as I scim over them. No reason to actually read the "content" (theres really not any actual content).

Its like watching the vast amount of yardage covered back and forth in some NFL game where, due to dumb assed tactics and faulty strategies, neither team ever scores.



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Aug 19, 2023 16:13:08   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
I think Bill was opining that this is a stupid discussion. I think he is correct. The thing is, it isn't a stupid question, really. It's just that the community here is apparently incapable of having an intelligent or even rational discussion about it.

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Aug 19, 2023 18:28:29   #
User ID
 
larryepage wrote:
I think Bill was opining that this is a stupid discussion. I think he is correct. The thing is, it isn't a stupid question, really. It's just that the community here is apparently incapable of having an intelligent or even rational discussion about it.

Oh, I do agree with Bills assessment, but I always view it as a bit absurd when someone announces their adios to a fugged up thread. Its self evident that no one gives a ratzazz watzup between those two half baked geeks.

For that matter, its also weird to occasionally see a pointless one-word post that just says "following". Its as silly as posting "Reading, but hafta take a short break for a snack".

Okay, well, its time for my snack !

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Aug 19, 2023 19:06:14   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
User ID wrote:
Oh, I do agree with Bills assessment, but I always view it as a bit absurd when someone announces their adios to a fugged up thread. Its self evident that no one gives a ratzazz watzup between those two half baked geeks.

For that matter, its also weird to occasionally see a pointless one-word post that just says "following". Its as silly as posting "Reading, but hafta take a short break for a snack".

Okay, well, its time for my snack !


You're just as silly as the rest of us.

But you already know that!

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Aug 19, 2023 19:16:16   #
gwilliams6
 
Bill_de wrote:
You're just as silly as the rest of us.

But you already know that!

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Aug 19, 2023 22:09:17   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Ysarex wrote:
That answer is wrong and you are wrong.

To explain away the visible differences we can all see between camera processed X-Trans files and alternative raw processor results as just differences in contrast, clarity, default sharpening, and input profiles is a mistake.

Demosaicing of the X-Trans CFA is a critical factor and plays a critical role. You are mistaken to discount it.

From DXO (https://www.dxo.com/tech-news/unique-sensor/):
"One of the reasons that the Bayer filter has proven so tenacious is that engineers are used to processing its data. Finding the best recipe for demosaicing Bayer sensors has kept researchers busy for four decades, and the highly sophisticated algorithms developed over the years have allowed them to mitigate many of the limitations fundamental to its design. Even fairly simple algorithms, such as those embedded in the first digital cameras, yield fairly good results.

The increased complexity of the X-Trans pattern, on the other hand, entails a demosaicing process that is far more elaborate. Fujifilm’s engineers are said to have spent five years waiting for their cameras’ processing power to catch up before introducing X-Trans in the X-Pro1 in 2012. At the same time, the research community has published far fewer papers about X-Trans demosaicing than they have for Bayer; not only is it a more complex problem but less research effort has been spent solving it. It seems fair to assume that current X-Trans demosaicing algorithms are still some distance away from achieving a theoretically optimal solution. This is one reason that Fujifilm enthusiasts often find themselves jumping between software packages in search of a solution that delivers the best results..."

At DxO, we have attempted to create better X-Trans processing in the past, but we were never quite satisfied with the outcome...

Today, image processing is being revolutionized by machine learning, particularly by a technology called convolutional neural networks...

X-Trans demosaicing is a great candidate for machine learning. Being more complex than Bayer demosaicing, the advantage of machine learning over traditional engineering should be even greater than that achieved with Bayer demosaicing. Our counterparts at Adobe demonstrated exactly this when they introduced their machine learning-powered “Enhance Details” feature in early 2020. Reviewers concluded that, while the difference for Bayer images was rather subtle, it was a significant improvement for X-Trans images.

At DxO, we leveraged machine learning in DxO PhotoLab to solve another highly complex task: our RAW conversion technology — DxO DeepPRIME and DeepPRIME XD — uses a single, huge convolutional neural network to apply demosaicing and denoising at the same time."
[my bold]

OMG! Another case of engineers in the photo industry going off half-cocked without checking first with Scotty! You'd think they'd learn. You should contact DXO and explain to them that it's just contrast, clarity, default sharpening and input profiles so they can get that embarrassing nonsense about demosaicing off their website.
That answer is wrong and b you are wrong. /b br ... (show quote)


You people are absolutely nuts! Come back to the human race

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Aug 19, 2023 22:13:04   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
selmslie wrote:
It's actually so difficult to do right that everyone is challenged by it. Too bad X-Trans doesn't offer any demonstrable benefits.

Is everone out of step but Fuji?

It's no wonder that Fuji did not use it for their medium format cameras. After all, all it would have taken would have been to come up with an X-Trans array to fit over a larger sensor.


Are you a project engineer for Fuji?

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