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Use of Raw and JPEG
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Aug 16, 2023 20:20:29   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
gwilliams6 wrote:
Properly processed, raw files do possess greater dynamic range, a fuller color pallett, more tonal range, and all the picture data your lens, and camera can capture, uncompressed with data lost forever that happens in jpegs.

This is just the facts. If you dont understand that, then do more research.

Certainly if you dont process your raw files properly you can have no better ultimate image quality than a jpeg. But starting with a raw file gives you so much more to work with, without all the image data lost in a compressed jpeg file.

In is just a fact that you will NEVER know the FULL image quality your lenses and camera sensor can capture if you never capture raw files. For many that doesn't matter ,and they are fine with jpegs, compressed and processed by the camera's internal processor and algorithms.

For me personally I love getting the ultimate image quality out of the gear I have heavily invested in. So I always shoot raw+Jpeg.

Do whatever you prefer, whatever you like, it is all good and your personal choice.

Cheers and best to you.
Properly processed, raw files do possess greater d... (show quote)


Please please spare us!

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Aug 16, 2023 20:21:25   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Ysarex wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "better" pictures. It's camera make/model dependent and the differences can range from fairly minor to quite substantial, but saving and processing raw files unquestionably provides better technical image quality over camera generated JPEGs. Easy to demonstrate.

Here’s a test show them to most people on the street

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Aug 16, 2023 20:21:54   #
Grahame Loc: Fiji
 
Ysarex wrote:
The point remains that I can dial back the sharpening on the RAF file but you can't demosaic the camera JPEG to render better fine detail. Below I removed the sharpening pass from the PL-6 processing. With the sharpening pass removed in PL-6 you really are seeing a difference in how the CFA is demosaiced. Still much better fine detail than the SOOC JPEG.

I don't disagree with what you say, but again your new example clearly demonstrates that your quest for detail adds that unsightly halo.

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Aug 16, 2023 20:23:29   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
davyboy wrote:
Here’s a test show them to most people on the street


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Aug 16, 2023 20:24:04   #
Grahame Loc: Fiji
 
davyboy wrote:
Here’s a test show them to most people on the street

You can also show them to magazine picture editors for another perspective

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Aug 16, 2023 20:24:29   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Ysarex wrote:
No it does not fall under better versatility in editing.

Again it's camera make/model dependent; A raw file can typically be processed to exhibit superior technical IQ over a camera JPEG; sharpness and fine detail rendition, noise management, lens distortion/lens corrections, color accuracy and tone response, etc.

Camera JPEG processors all operate under the constant threat that the user will press the shutter release and hold it down. At that point the embedded camera software has to keep up. To do that the camera engineers have no choice but to do some corner cutting. They do amazingly well under duress.

This just came up in another forum I visit. The OP had a Nikon D3500. I went to DPReview and downloaded one of their sample images. Here's the photo (SOOC JPEG): https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/9111488384/nikon-d3500-sample-gallery/5019520573 Here's a full res JPEG I created processing the raw file: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4hk162mtyuwfcv1b2kwve/d3500-raw.jpg?rlkey=trh5v73dcoyr3mqompm94mhtz&dl=0

Below is a 100% crop comparing the camera SOOC JPEG and my version of the processed raw file. My version of the image exhibits superior technical IQ not because I had more editing versatility but because I used better software that unfortunately Nikon can't put in their cameras. The D3500 is rated at 5 frames per second continuous shooting. If the embedded image processing software in the D3500 were the equal of what I used with PL-6 that 5 frames per second would not be possible.
No it does not fall under better versatility in ed... (show quote)


You didn’t even bother to process the jpeg

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Aug 16, 2023 20:26:33   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Must...
achieve...
perfection...


Funny thing though, perfection is asymptotic.

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Aug 16, 2023 20:29:00   #
RichieC Loc: Adirondacks
 
Architect1776 wrote:
For those with 2 card slots in their cameras what is the purpose of having one doing JPEG?
I have found that if I want a backup I want it in raw as well.
If I need to immediately send a photo out I just send it through to my phone and share it.
Otherwise if I am going to download it to my computer there is no rush and can take the time to do whatever PP I desire.
So what value is JPEG on the second card?


You are shooting for yourself no doubt. When shooting for others...

RAW(NEF in my case) as primary and also RAW as backup for very important events in case something happens to one card. ( Never had this happen) .

RAW + Jpeg for less important events, but jpegs so you can instantly share them rather than have to go to a computer and process a set of jpegs.

OR, paradigm shift... You shoot jpegs, and the raw is the backup for shots that could be improved.

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Aug 16, 2023 20:32:30   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
gwilliams6 wrote:
Yes I agree jpegs SOOC are better than they used to be. But in-camera jpeg compression does PERMANENTLY throw away data from your image files as it compresses it into a smaller file size, just the reality of jpegs. Uncompressed raw files keep ALL the image data your camera's sensor and lens can capture. Jpegs DO NOT contain all the image data that your camera sensor and lens captured, just a fact.

JUST THE FACTS that everyone in this discussion should understand:

From Adobe: " When an image is captured in a digital camera, it is recorded as raw data. If the camera format is set to JPEG, this raw data is processed and compressed before it is saved in the JPEG format. If the camera format is set to raw, no processing is applied, and therefore the file stores more tonal and color data."

The Full Adobe article:

"When to use raw vs. JPEG
Understand the advantages of shooting raw over JPEG and the creative flexibility you have when processing your files.


One of the choices you encounter on many digital cameras is whether to save the photos from your camera as JPEGs or raw files. This choice can have a significant impact on the processing options and possibilities available to you. The advantages of raw become clear once you start editing your photos in programs like Adobe Photoshop Lightroom.

What is a raw file?
When an image is captured in a digital camera, it is recorded as raw data. If the camera format is set to JPEG, this raw data is processed and compressed before it is saved in the JPEG format.

If the camera format is set to raw, no processing is applied, and therefore the file stores more tonal and color data. With more data stored in the file, there is more processing flexibility than a JPEG can offer. Here's a cooking analogy: a raw file contains the ingredients to make a specific meal that you can prep however you'd like, whereas a JPEG is that meal already cooked, and there is less flexibility in how you can modify it.


A JPEG, even one that is straight out of the camera, has already been “developed” by the camera’s image processor. Settings such as brightness, contrast, color saturation, and even sharpening may have already been applied. The look of a JPEG image can be changed in an image editing application, but since it is a compressed format designed to yield smaller file sizes, a lot of tonal and color data has been permanently discarded during the compression process. The result is a file with far fewer potential tonal values than would be possible in a raw file of the same scene. For some images, this difference can be critical.

Raw has more options for correcting exposure issues
One of the main benefits of capturing a photo as a raw file is that the additional tonal and color data in the file offers more options, especially if exposure changes are needed.

With a JPEG, white balance is applied by the camera, and there are fewer options to modify it in post-processing. With a raw file, you have complete control over white balance when editing the image.
Lost detail in overexposed highlights cannot be recovered in a JPEG. In a raw file, even if the highlights appear to be completely white at first, it may be possible to adjust those tones and reveal highlight detail that is still present.
The same is true of darker, underexposed images. Shadow detail that is irretrievably lost in a JPEG can often be more successfully recovered in a raw file.
Noise reduction can be more effectively applied to a raw file than a JPEG.

Raw offers more processing flexibility

The JPEG processing applied by the camera is designed to produce a good-looking image right out of the camera, and this processing cannot be undone. A raw file, on the other hand, is processed by you; so you can decide how the image will look. In Lightroom, any changes you apply to a raw file can be modified at any time, allowing for maximum creative flexibility when you process the file. This flexibility, along with the possibility to significantly improve less-than-ideal exposures, are the main benefits of shooting in raw."

Cheers and best to you all.
Yes I agree jpegs SOOC are better than they used t... (show quote)


The jpegs work great! I edit most all photos I deem are worthy! Funny thing is I don’t need all the data that a raw provides

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Aug 16, 2023 20:35:38   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Again you neglected to even try editing the jpeg! Why won’t you try

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Aug 16, 2023 20:44:53   #
Canisdirus
 
There are levels to photography...as with anything else.

Editing in Raw yields better results...no question about it.

So it is either you don't need quality in your images...that's a level of photography...not a high one but... a level.

Or you don't care about quality in your images...that's a level...below the one above.

Or you don't have the coin or skillset to edit raw...that's a level as well.

But don't ever kid yourself that jpeg is just as good.

That's just plain ignorance...the lowest level.

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Aug 16, 2023 20:47:20   #
Grahame Loc: Fiji
 
Canisdirus wrote:
There are levels to photography...as with anything else.

Editing in Raw yields better results...no question about it.

So it is either you don't need quality in your images...that's a level of photography...not a high one but... a level.

Or you don't care about quality in your images...that's a level...below the one above.

Or you don't have the coin or skillset to edit raw...that's a level as well.

But don't ever kid yourself that jpeg is just as good.

That's just plain ignorance...the lowest level.
There are levels to photography...as with anything... (show quote)


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Aug 16, 2023 20:53:38   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Conviewcius says:
"People who look down on those that are content with a level under theirs must have sore necks.".

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Aug 16, 2023 20:57:23   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Grahame wrote:
I don't disagree with what you say, but again your new example clearly demonstrates that your quest for detail adds that unsightly halo.

No, that's the default RAF processing from PL-6 with no additional sharpening applied. If I have to choose between your opinion and the position of the engineers at DXO then I'm going with the engineers at DXO as authoritative.

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Aug 16, 2023 21:01:01   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
davyboy wrote:
Again you neglected to even try editing the jpeg! Why won’t you try


You can't add in missing detail that the camera failed to render in the first place. There's no point to editing the JPEG when the damage has already been done -- it's not damage you can undo.

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