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Aug 4, 2023 18:35:43   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
User ID wrote:
Amen re: $$$ !

As I said, I could be possibly tempted by a REEEEEEEEEEALLY cheap used Pentax monochrome. Even then, I might get fed up with it since Im not very fond of SLRs, and especially not APSC SLRs. I would be using it in its awkward Live View mode.

Not familiar with an APSC SLR. How long ago were they made?

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Aug 4, 2023 18:54:40   #
User ID
 
selmslie wrote:
Not familiar with an APSC SLR. How long ago were they made?

My film versions were made by Olympus, Konica, and Yashika. APSC SLRs have been popular throughout the digital era. The Pentax monochrome is an APSC SLR. APSC size is between 4/3 and H formats.

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Aug 4, 2023 19:48:41   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
User ID wrote:
The Pentax monochrome is an APSC SLR. APSC size is between 4/3 and H formats.

Not a great combination. But it has an LCD so at least you can see what happened.

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Aug 4, 2023 19:49:27   #
srg
 
ORpilot wrote:
Yes, These were shot within 30 min of each other . The color is with Sony a7iii . Then the color converted was done on apple photos to mono. No alteration to either. The last is the converted Sony a7ii B&W with red filter. Enjoy


Well, there's your proof.
Mono is just idiotic in this day and age.

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Aug 4, 2023 21:35:21   #
User ID
 
selmslie wrote:
Not a great combination. But it has an LCD so at least you can see what happened.

Thaz why Im not at all fond of SLRs.

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Aug 4, 2023 21:42:40   #
User ID
 
selmslie wrote:
The LCD displays the camera’s JPEG. We have been referring to mirrorless cameras. DSLRs are passé.

Agreed passe but the OPs query concerns the Pentax Monochrome SLR which, most unfortunately, is an actual passe SLR :-(

If such a Pentax fell offa the truck, right into my hands, I would be using it only via its Live View option ... until I got sick of it and sold it to the OP ;-)

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Aug 4, 2023 22:06:30   #
jburlinson Loc: Austin, TX
 
camerapapi wrote:
We are all different and we all have different a different taste and achieve different results with our shootings. If I have a camera that shoots primarily color and in my humble opinion I think I have the best of both worlds, I can shoot color and I can shoot b&w.
My monochrome images are edited with Topaz B&W Effects 2, some of them with Affinity Photo. Contrary to the gentleman that stated that he has never seen a good b&w image from desaturated colors I do have seen many beautiful images treated that way and some of them were shot emulating Ansel Adams in Yosemite. I was cruising once aboard a known cruise line and I was admiring the excellent quality of portraits in b&w shot by the photographer working for that ship. The images were of excellent quality. I asked the photographer what camera she was using and she told me a Nikon set to shoot monochrome. The difference she said was that the lab working for her knew that and proceeded accordingly to print the monochrome images. We did not discuss how the lab was doing it.

My limited experience with digital monochrome images has not been bad. I have used the color image with the Topaz software and I have taken the image to a professional lab that works with monochrome images. The results have been spectacular to me. For several years I worked in a darkroom processing and printing monochrome images shot with film. Before the introduction of B&W Effects by Topaz I was very frustrated trying to make good monochrome images from digital. It took me sometime in spite of the excellent software by Topaz to find the tonalities I was used to in a good print but eventually I found what I had to do to get them and ever since I have been fine with my monochrome images. I know someone else will have a different experience to mine.

I do not use monochrome images like I did in the past and you will seldom see me shooting to convert to monochrome. If I do I know what to do to get images to my satisfaction.
We are all different and we all have different a d... (show quote)


Very helpful and very interesting. Thank you.

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Aug 4, 2023 22:08:56   #
jburlinson Loc: Austin, TX
 
selmslie wrote:
I had the Bayer array removed from my A7 II (24MP) and can confirm both of these differences.

If you remove the color filter array (CFA, commonly Bayer) from a color sensor, more light reaches the sensor. A camera set to ISO 100 behaves as though it is recording at about ISO 200. But the meter in the camera reacts to that and reduces the exposure accordingly. The ISO settings in a camera that never had a color array would actually display the correct ISO.

On removing the CFA, the camera's JPEG will display a magenta image unless you also set it to display as B&W. But the camera will have used demosaicing to create the JPEG so you don't want to use it. Instead, shoot raw and use Monochrome2DNG to convert the raw file to a DNG which sets a flag to tell most raw conversion programs to skip the demosaicing process. This step is critical to obtain the primary benefit, an increase in sharpness. A camera designed to capture only B&W in the first place will already have this flag set.

When I compare the results for the converted A7 II to the Z7 (45.7MP) using the same lens, the sharpness is too close to tell them apart showing that there is an increase of about 100% in area resolution, about a 40% increase in linear sharpness.

But there is a lot more to it than just these mechanical differences.

A scene with good apparent color contrast might not actually have enough tonal contrast since two adjacent colors might have similar luminance. Although you can separate the colors during the raw conversion the side effects may not be optimal. Since this adjustment is often done to darken a blue sky, traditional color filters can help if you are using a monochrome camera but they are unnecessary if the CFA is present.

By viewing the image on the camera's LCD as a B&W image you can judge the amount of tonal contrast that will come through when the color contrast is no longer involved. This can be useful even if you don't remove the CFA and just convert the color image to B&W on your computer.
I had the Bayer array removed from my A7 II (24MP)... (show quote)


Thanks for your interesting response. May I ask where you got your modification to the A7 ii?

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Aug 4, 2023 22:13:18   #
jburlinson Loc: Austin, TX
 
ORpilot wrote:
I also have the Sony a7ii converted to B&W. I agree with everything he noted. I was initially impressed with the increase resolution. There is a subtle difference between a converted Color to B&W and the a7ii conversion. I find the images from my B&W a7ii to feel and look closer shooting in film. Being a long time B&W photographer I prefer the image from my converted a7ii. I use color filters in the same way as did with film.

My used a7ii convert was about $1500. I would like to see images from the Pentax. I have seen the Leica images , As with all Leica images they are First Class, But way out of my price range. It's just a matter of taste and "do I like it"
I also have the Sony a7ii converted to B&W. I ... (show quote)


Beautiful image! Where did you get the conversion done? I wonder if they could do a conversion on a previous generation Pentax -- like a KS-2? At $1500 for the conversion, that would be a considerable savings over the new monochrome camera.

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Aug 4, 2023 22:15:34   #
jburlinson Loc: Austin, TX
 
ORpilot wrote:
Yes, These were shot within 30 min of each other . The color is with Sony a7iii . Then the color converted was done on apple photos to mono. No alteration to either. The last is the converted Sony a7ii B&W with red filter. Enjoy


Wonderful demonstration. Just what I was hoping to see.

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Aug 4, 2023 22:18:58   #
jburlinson Loc: Austin, TX
 
Physlab wrote:
Here is a sample image of the Tillicum Crossing Bridge in Portland, OR. Monochrome aids the viewer in concentrating on the structure.

Lowell


Nice image. Did you use a monochrome camera for this?

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Aug 4, 2023 22:22:08   #
jburlinson Loc: Austin, TX
 
selmslie wrote:
The LCD displays the camera’s JPEG. We have been referring to mirrorless cameras. DSLRs are passé.


Possibly true about DSLRs. But the new Pentax mono is a dslr. Besides the controversial K01 of many years ago, Pentax has dug into dslr for good, it appears.

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Aug 5, 2023 00:35:47   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
ORpilot wrote:
Yes, These were shot within 30 min of each other . The color is with Sony a7iii . Then the color converted was done on apple photos to mono. No alteration to either. The last is the converted Sony a7ii B&W with red filter. Enjoy
First tip of the hat, good composition with the cloud just touching the peak.

This is a monochrome discussion so no comment on the color version.

The last version seems to have a slightly different framing, and the red filter is not working for me.

I do like the Color converted in Apple Photos to "mono". Nice monochrome pic.

Just an opinion from some random guy on the internet.

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Aug 5, 2023 01:41:50   #
ORpilot Loc: Prineville, Or
 
jburlinson wrote:
Beautiful image! Where did you get the conversion done? I wonder if they could do a conversion on a previous generation Pentax -- like a KS-2? At $1500 for the conversion, that would be a considerable savings over the new monochrome camera.


The conversion was done by Monochrome Imaging Services, Vancouver WA. 503-515-2722. https://monochromeimaging.com/odering/

They only do Sony Mirrorless but I have seen where there are other companies that convert other cameras.

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Aug 5, 2023 02:02:18   #
ORpilot Loc: Prineville, Or
 
JD750 wrote:
First tip of the hat, good composition with the cloud just touching the peak.

This is a monochrome discussion so no comment on the color version.

The last version seems to have a slightly different framing, and the red filter is not working for me.

I do like the Color converted in Apple Photos to "mono". Nice monochrome pic.

Just an opinion from some random guy on the internet.


They were shot with two different lenses. The color-B&W was Sony 70-300G and the B&W was Minolta 24-85mm lens, So there will be a slight difference. I was not actually thinking of a test shot comparison when I did this back in 2021. As for which is better... It's a matter of taste and feel. Do you like a Pendleton wool shirt or a Woolrich wool shirt? Here is an extreme crop from the conversion a7ii you will see a bird just to the right of the mountain peak ....Note: how little the grain is....Almost like shooting in Panatomic-X

extreme crop from the a7ii conversion
extreme crop from the a7ii conversion...

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