Longshadow wrote:
I don't loose sleep over it either.
Perhaps the real question has always been "When (if ever) are the criticisms of pixel-peepers relevant?"
(But it's still nice to have sharpness and microdetail as an option).
Architect1776 wrote:
We frequently hear said x lens from the past is still considered tack sharp.
Then we hear said y lens from the present is tack sharp.
So either nothing has improved in 50+ years or it is all hyperbole.
So what is sharp enough in real world use and outdoor conditions and usually hand held?
Not charts and lab tests but real world use where the camera's AF could not be accurate enough on a consistent basis to make the grade.
Is a 50 year old premium lens in real world as good as the latest wonder lens?
We frequently hear said x lens from the past is st... (
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As long as my images are "tack sharp" I don't give a Rotund Rodents Rectum of who says one lens is sharper than the other.
After read a test of a lens 65 years ago I came to the conclusion the testing went to such extremes that the human eye would not notice!!
I Have my lenses and I'm sticking to them !!!
Ava'sPapa wrote:
Seems to me that I saw "tack sharp" photos back more than 50 years ago. National Geographic for one...much more than 50 years ago. Why can't 50 or 60 (or older) lenses be tack sharp? It's just easier to get "tack sharp" focus with today's lenses with IBIS and quick and precise auto focus and in that sense lenses have improved. "Is a 50 year old premium lens in real world as good as the latest wonder lens?" I think the comparison here shouldn't be with the lenses but with the final product...the photograph. Did I enjoy driving coast to coast in my 442 when I got out of the service? You bet I did, but with the improvement in technology in cars, I'd rather do it today in a new BMW. But, I'd still get from California to Connecticut in relative comfort either way.
Seems to me that I saw "tack sharp" phot... (
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This is where perception comes in. Find one of those 50 year old National Geographics and compare it to a recent issue. I remember when I first got a VGA monitor. That 640x480 display was amazing. We were blown away how good those graphics were. Now we’d look at them and think they’re crap.
R.G. wrote:
That question goes hand in hand with the question "How much resolution is enough?" The more resolution your sensor has (i.e. the higher the pixel count), the sharper the lens needs to be to render all those pixels optimally.
How necessary is the camera industry's pursuit of more resolution/sharpness? The assumed benefit is better microdetail (more quantity-wise and more quality-wise). The benefits of better microdetail are most noticeable when we conduct a side-by-side comparison, but in the absence of that we have a tendency to NOT miss what we don't know is missing. That would put improvements in microdetail into the category of being nice to have but not essential.
Considering just how easy it is to become obsessive about those sort of things, it's probably a good idea to stop and remind ourselves exactly what matters most in photos - and if necessary, re-evaluate. Professionals obviously want the best of the best, but the rest of us could end up spending a lot of money chasing something that by its nature is always going to have limited benefits where the quality of our output is concerned. As is often said, if it's not obvious at normal viewing distance then it can't be that important (or words to that effect).
Somebody's probably going to mention cropping as a reason for wanting more resolution/sharpness - and it's true - but for most of us the best option is to get the framing right in-camera.
That question goes hand in hand with the question ... (
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You can get the framing right in camera and still need to crop. Sometimes you just can’t get close enough to fill the frame. Or I might be filling the frame with an eagle and I sense it’s getting ready to take off. I’ll probably back of the zoom to allow for spread wings and to allow for room to keep it in frame.
SuperflyTNT wrote:
You can get the framing right in camera and still need to crop. Sometimes you just can’t get close enough to fill the frame. Or I might be filling the frame with an eagle and I sense it’s getting ready to take off. I’ll probably back of the zoom to allow for spread wings and to allow for room to keep it in frame.
That's an example of the sort of photography that will benefit from higher resolution/sharpness, but it's still only occasionally that you need the extra benefits.
Anybody can get what they thought was optimal framing only to decide later that a crop would be better, but if you're shooting at 24MP, there's still a lot of room for cropping. And if the required cropping is extreme it's time to develop your "eye" for framing, or alternatively it may be time to consider getting optics with more reach.
Longshadow wrote:
I guess it depends on the tack and how cheaply they were made.
Carpet tacks are needle sharp...
Then we should discuss needle sharpness rather than just tack sharpness so as to specify the very sharpest species of tack.
R.G. wrote:
Perhaps the real question has always been "When (if ever) are the criticisms of pixel-peepers relevant?"
(But it's still nice to have sharpness and microdetail as an option).
Sharpness is really nice, but I'm not obsessed with or consumed by it.
I'm
DEFINITELY NOT a pixel peeper
I'm happy.
User ID wrote:
Then we should discuss needle sharpness rather than just tack sharpness so as to specify the very sharpest species of tack.
Then, can it be made even sharper?
Architect1776 wrote:
We frequently hear said x lens from the past is still considered tack sharp.
Then we hear said y lens from the present is tack sharp.
So either nothing has improved in 50+ years or it is all hyperbole.
So what is sharp enough in real world use and outdoor conditions and usually hand held?
Not charts and lab tests but real world use where the camera's AF could not be accurate enough on a consistent basis to make the grade.
Is a 50 year old premium lens in real world as good as the latest wonder lens?
We frequently hear said x lens from the past is st... (
show quote)
Its all relative to what you need. How sharp do you really need it ? Are you counting the bricks in a building facade?
Architect1776 wrote:
We frequently hear said x lens from the past is still considered tack sharp.
Then we hear said y lens from the present is tack sharp.
So either nothing has improved in 50+ years or it is all hyperbole.
So what is sharp enough in real world use and outdoor conditions and usually hand held?
Not charts and lab tests but real world use where the camera's AF could not be accurate enough on a consistent basis to make the grade.
Is a 50 year old premium lens in real world as good as the latest wonder lens?
We frequently hear said x lens from the past is st... (
show quote)
To the original header question “how sharp is sharp enough?” - my take is that it depends heavily on how a photo is being viewed. Are we talking about viewing a photo in a “normal” manner (and in the case of a physical print at a normal viewing distance) - or are we talking about sharpness when evaluated through extreme “pixel peeping” or the print equivalent of approaching a gallery sized print and examining it through a magnifying glass - neither of which fall into the category of normal viewing.
I have used several of my vintage manual focus “Nikkor” lenses on several of my mirrorless cameras and the images rendered are more that acceptably sharp in any normal (as defined above) usage. They were considered top grade lenses back in the day and they still perform well. Would they stand up in a side by side pixel peeping contest - perhaps not (and I have never actually tried to do such an evaluation) - but very frankly I don’t care - they perform quite well in realistic use and I have yet to have anyone comment negatively about the optical performance evident in any of my vintage lens images.
petercbrandt wrote:
Its all relative to what you need. How sharp do you really need it ? Are you counting the bricks in a building facade?
Or the non-conformities in each brick? Mortar joints?
Architect1776 wrote:
We frequently hear said x lens from the past is still considered tack sharp.
Then we hear said y lens from the present is tack sharp.
So either nothing has improved in 50+ years or it is all hyperbole.
So what is sharp enough in real world use and outdoor conditions and usually hand held?
Not charts and lab tests but real world use where the camera's AF could not be accurate enough on a consistent basis to make the grade.
Is a 50 year old premium lens in real world as good as the latest wonder lens?
We frequently hear said x lens from the past is st... (
show quote)
What a bazar post by you. I have the E. Leitz f1.5 8.5cm lens made for the German Military prior to WW II and during. The lens was reintroduced after the Second World War by Leica and sold to the public, the production models that were sold to the German Military were never available to anyone until after WW II. Thus lens works equally well on the older pre M cameras (Leica IIIc and IIId bodies), and on mu Leica M4 and on a Leica M5. At close range wide open, the camera must be able to focus perfectly on say the eye such that the front of the eye lashes will begin falling out of focus, attesting to the critical precision of Leica rangefinder cameras to achieve focus at demanding conditions.
It is important to note that many of the modern makers of ultra fast 85mm lenses use the basics of this lens's design for their starting point. Are they as sharp? I could not say.
I do know that 'sharpness' in a photograph has at it's base many factors. Is the contact print from an 8X10 image sharp? Of coarse not. It appears sharp to most any viewers eyes, but almost all contact prints are not sharp. Making a sharp contact print from any image is close to imposable, but with some vary sophisticated set ups it can be achieved when compared to most average enlarged images using simple condensed enlargers.
In the practical world one can find decent responses to this question without the need to resort to all the technical issues. Back when Kodak introduced the new improved Kodachrome films and made them available in 120 size and for a limited time as sheet films, some fashion photographer tried to use the new roll film Kodachrome with complete disaster. The standard for the industry was the Hasselblad camera, and the current lens were the Zeiss T* optics. The problem simply was that no matter how good the model's skin and no matter how great the MUA (Make Up Artist) was, the Zeiss Optics saw ever tiny flaw that were there to be seen. So, the world of practicality dictated that the new improved sharper, clearer Kodachrome coupled with the ultra-sharp optics from Carl Zeiss were a poor combination. Sometimes sharp is not what is desirable.
One can not get an answer to such a question. Or as the old saw goes "The devil is in the detail". I know you are not really asking this question as a simple question, but rather you have a larger agenda.
My images are Old Fart sharp, good enough for me and the people I print them for.
Which part of the image is the sharpEST is more important than how many hairs you can count on the rat's .... eyelid.
That said - it is fun to pixel peep at the cityscape windows on Hedgehog to see wazup?
Boris
Boris77 wrote:
My images are Old Fart sharp, good enough for me and the people I print them for.
Which part of the image is the sharpEST is more important than how many hairs you can count on the rat's .... eyelid.
That said - it is fun to pixel peep at the cityscape windows on Hedgehog to see wazup?
Boris
OFS, now there's a new acronym.
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