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Boeing - Old Habits are Hard to Break
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Jul 29, 2023 22:44:23   #
Scruples Loc: Brooklyn, New York
 
CaltechNerd wrote:
All of this is true. I believed in the company too, went out of my way to fly in Boeing planes. My time there convinced me it was an honorable competent company. And it was, at that time.

AND, the 737 Max knowingly violated engineering principles. One retired engineer said it looked like it was designed by monkeys. To accommodate the new, larger, heavier, clearly better engines, they had to change the position of the engines, lower and further forward. That destroyed the balance of the plane. It needed to be rethought. Instead, they installed a computer system that would over-ride the pilot and "correct" the attitude of the plane. The new system depended on a single sensor. All sensors can fail. The new system was not thoroughly explained to any pilots because the Boeing CEO worried that such a change might concern pilots which could slow sales. And likewise, pilots never flew a simulator with the new flight characteristics and the override because reprogramming simulators and retraining pilots costs a lot of money and that dampens sales.
All of this is true. I believed in the company to... (show quote)


A company that once had a very reputable name.

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Jul 30, 2023 06:07:49   #
Canonuser Loc: UK and South Africa
 
My grandson is a pilot and his company ordered a number of the Boeing 737 Max planes. Prior to delivery he was given an A4 sheet of paper outlining the very few issues pilots would need to know about.
Following the two crashes, the planes were not delivered. After the lengthy enquiry and modifications his company took delivery of the planes. However, the A4 sheet of paper had been replaced by two days of simulator training.

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Jul 30, 2023 08:13:31   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
CaltechNerd wrote:
This is the tragic flaw in US justice. In Germany, when Volkswagen marketed a diesel car that changed it's settings when tested to fake it's pollution, the EXECUTIVES went on trial. Corporations don't kill people, executives do. US justice only punishes the corporation, a mindless legal fiction. But it's the actual people who make decisions and the people are not held responsible. From the 737 Max to the Challenger astronauts being murdered by launching the flight when every knowledgeable party said it wasn't even remotely safe, we see people go free with no consequences.

It's time for a change.
This is the tragic flaw in US justice. In Germany... (show quote)


Yes, I've seen that in several foreign countries. People responsible for disasters actually go to jail!

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Jul 30, 2023 08:16:56   #
BebuLamar
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Yes, I've seen that in several foreign countries. People responsible for disasters actually go to jail!


That is why they are more careful in other countries especially in Japan. In the US however it seems the profit is most important. If they screw up the profit they lose their jobs and causing disasters could only make them lose their jobs at worst. So they do the math and figure out their chances.

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Jul 30, 2023 08:21:04   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
BebuLamar wrote:
In the US however it seems the profit is most important.


Yes, and it's a shame. And profit has to be immediate, not a couple of years down the road. Spend as little as possible and cut costs everywhere. How many thousands of Americans were laid off so people in other countries could make the products. Costs went way down, but the prices kept rising. It's a broken system. How can a boss justify making $5,000 and hour (plus benefits) while saying he can't afford to pay workers $15.00 and hour?

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Jul 30, 2023 10:44:32   #
markngolf Loc: Bridgewater, NJ
 
I saw the documentary, "Downfall" on Netflix a while back. Here's Wikipedia's post about the movie and history of the period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall:_The_Case_Against_Boeing

Mark

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Jul 30, 2023 11:29:08   #
BebuLamar
 
markngolf wrote:
I saw the documentary, "Downfall" on Netflix a while back. Here's Wikipedia's post about the movie and history of the period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall:_The_Case_Against_Boeing

Mark


And yet nobody is being procecuted for murder. Boeing may lose a lot of business and these excecutives may lose their jobs but if they let Airbus beats them the result isn't that much different. They just hedged their bets and all they have on the line is their jobs and they would be risking it either way.

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Jul 30, 2023 11:34:00   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
BebuLamar wrote:
And yet nobody is being procecuted for murder. Boeing may lose a lot of business and these excecutives may lose their jobs but if they let Airbus beats them the result isn't that much different. They just hedged their bets and all they have on the line is their jobs and they would be risking it either way.


Lose their jobs? Surely, you jest.

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Jul 30, 2023 11:36:34   #
BebuLamar
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Lose their jobs? Surely, you jest.


They may or may not lose their jobs but that's the only thing they have on the line and they stand an equal chance of losing their jobs either risking the safety or spend more time and let Airbus beat them to the finish line. And your tittle may say it all. It's not so much an old habit but because they have done it before and knew if they busted the consequence wasn't all that bad for them. If they didn't do it perhaps it would be worse for them. Because of that I am sure they would never stop doing it. Also about losing one's job. When Steve Jobs lost his job at Apple it hurted him a lot because he founded the company but with these non founding excecutives all they do is to collect the package and move on to another company.

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Jul 30, 2023 14:43:39   #
rmmason
 

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Jul 30, 2023 23:49:23   #
Latsok Loc: Recently moved to Washington State.
 
jerryc41 wrote:
I'm sure you've heard about how Boeing tried to save money and wound-up crashing planes. Well, this practice goes back over thirty years. The early 737s had a problem with the ruder control mechanism, and three planes crashed as a result, with total loss of life. Boeing blamed the weather for one and pilot error for another. The authorities didn't accept that, but the destruction was so total that they couldn't determine the cause. Two other planes experienced the same lack of control, but the pilots were able to recover.

Boeing knew all along why those planes crashed. "We have a problem," was a message sent from one Boeing executive to another. They knew what had caused those crashes, but they blamed them on the weather and the pilots. Years passed as they try to decide what to do, never letting on to what had caused the fatal crashes. They made up a chart of the possible solutions, listing the negatives of each fix. They eventually settled on a solution: drag out the replacement of the part for years. That was the cheapest way to go.




Eventually, authorities determined that the defective part had caused the problems, and that part was replaced, but it took years to get it done. Penalties for Boeing? Surely, you jest.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rudder+problem+with+737-200&oq=rudder+problem+with+737-200&aqs=edge..69i57j0i546l4.22671j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I'm sure you've heard about how Boeing tried to sa... (show quote)


You really don't like Boeing; Jerry. Don't you? 😉

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Jul 31, 2023 04:58:39   #
Harry02 Loc: Gardena, CA
 
jerryc41 wrote:
I'm sure you've heard about how Boeing tried to save money and wound-up crashing planes. Well, this practice goes back over thirty years. The early 737s had a problem with the ruder control mechanism, and three planes crashed as a result, with total loss of life. Boeing blamed the weather for one and pilot error for another. The authorities didn't accept that, but the destruction was so total that they couldn't determine the cause. Two other planes experienced the same lack of control, but the pilots were able to recover.

Boeing knew all along why those planes crashed. "We have a problem," was a message sent from one Boeing executive to another. They knew what had caused those crashes, but they blamed them on the weather and the pilots. Years passed as they try to decide what to do, never letting on to what had caused the fatal crashes. They made up a chart of the possible solutions, listing the negatives of each fix. They eventually settled on a solution: drag out the replacement of the part for years. That was the cheapest way to go.

Eventually, authorities determined that the defective part had caused the problems, and that part was replaced, but it took years to get it done. Penalties for Boeing? Surely, you jest.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rudder+problem+with+737-200&oq=rudder+problem+with+737-200&aqs=edge..69i57j0i546l4.22671j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
I'm sure you've heard about how Boeing tried to sa... (show quote)


IIRC one "fix" the regular mechanics did was to clean, smooth and relube that rudder assembly every time they could. The Corps dismissed the mechanics, and the procedures, to save money.

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Jul 31, 2023 08:51:05   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
Latsok wrote:
You really don't like Boeing; Jerry. Don't you? 😉


I used to think that was the greatest builder of airplanes. then it combined with M-D, and profit won out over engineering and safety. Wall St. investors made a fortune through cost-cutting measures, and people died in plane crashes.

There was a 747 crash years ago - an explosion - and the cause was probably trying to save money on wiring. That was TWA Flight 800. Wiring was the cause, but the exact chain of events seems unclear.

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Jul 31, 2023 11:04:53   #
CaltechNerd Loc: Whittier, CA, USA
 
jerryc41 wrote:
I used to think that was the greatest builder of airplanes. then it combined with M-D, and profit won out over engineering and safety. Wall St. investors made a fortune through cost-cutting measures, and people died in plane crashes.

There was a 747 crash years ago - an explosion - and the cause was probably trying to save money on wiring. That was TWA Flight 800. Wiring was the cause, but the exact chain of events seems unclear.


Exactly Jerry! The problems started when M-D management (no engineering background and no respect for engineers) made profit the only goal.

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Jul 31, 2023 12:34:25   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
BebuLamar wrote:
And yet nobody is being procecuted for murder. Boeing may lose a lot of business and these excecutives may lose their jobs but if they let Airbus beats them the result isn't that much different. They just hedged their bets and all they have on the line is their jobs and they would be risking it either way.


So who do you send to prison? The CEO? Perhaps the engineer department head for the failed system? Maybe the individual that designed the specific part? What about the machinist who produced it, the technician that installed the part. Could it be the inspector who missed the error or if he didn’t miss it the person who was supposed to fix it after the error was detected? The final inspectors? The FAA? The head of the Department of Transportation? Which one had the intent to crash the plane and have the lives of hundreds on his/her conscience? Just curious.

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