Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
How did a plane crash on the upper floors of the World Trade Center result in the entire building collapsing?
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
Feb 19, 2023 14:45:22   #
CaltechNerd Loc: Whittier, CA, USA
 
Excellent analysis. One thing the architects/engineers missed was how much paper and wooden furniture would be placed in each office. Spray it with burning jet fuel and the inevitable happened.

Reply
Feb 19, 2023 14:46:52   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
bcheary wrote:
Quora.com

How did a plane crash on the upper floors of the World Trade Center result in the entire building collapsing?

That’s a legitimate question, and kudos for not just automatically declaring “ergo conspiracy”.

In fact, the damage caused by the aircraft impacting the towers — even at the high rate of speed they were traveling — was not fatal to either tower. These structures were famously designed and constructed to flex in strong gale-force winds or earthquakes, and even absorb the impact of the largest commercial aircraft at the time which was a Boeing 707 four-engine passenger jet. You can’t really tell from available video or film footage, but the initial impact caused the upper section of the structures to displace 10–20 feet from the center of gravity, and then swayed back like a pendulum. People who were up there and survived said it felt like they were going to capsize. So up to this point the buildings performed beautifully, testament to the soundness of the engineering and the redundancies in redistributing stress loads. So, what happened to cause total failure?

The fires is what happened. Ah, come on! Jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt steel. And how could a bunch of paper and office furniture burn at such high temperatures?

One needs to understand that heat causes steel to expand and warp, and lose structural strength. Think of a Japanese sword maker. He’s heating that very hard steel over a simple carbon fire. The steel hasn’t melted, but it has become softened and malleable to the extent he can fold it and hammer it, over and over.

Normally, if a fire starts in an electrical closet, it will burn everything in that immediate area and then progress to other areas. Overhead sprinkler systems and fire fighters will usually get things under control before it gets out of hand. But on 9/11, those planes were fueled for a cross-continental flight. So at the moment of impact there was a deflagration of 10,000 gallons of jet fuel which ignited large fires on 2 or 3 floors simultaneously. This is way beyond the pale in terms of manageability by fire fighters even under the best of circumstances. But in this case we have the water pipes which fed the sprinkler system severed. We have an elevator system rendered inoperative. And we have thousands of people who need to be evacuated. This was a very grave situation.

Okay, this is way up in the upper portions of the structure. How could those fires have affected lower floors? What caused them to fail?

This is so. The fires had virtually no impact on the lower 50 stories. The steel that was affected by fire was the trusses and columns in the impact zone. For Truthers who question the severity of the fires, please explain why so many people jumped to their deaths from the area above the fires. Police helicopter footage shows the perimeter columns on the floors of the impact zone bowing outward in the minutes before the collapse. The steel that was holding up all the floors above this zone was getting ready to buckle. And buckle it did. This resulted in a 25-story building falling 12 feet. That is a dynamic load the floor below cannot stand up to. Now you have a 26-story building falling onto the next floor down…and so on.

Think of it as tower of cards; you destroy the entire section of the 51st floor; the sections over them fall and add more pressure damaging the full structure and another floor goes down. It’s a chain reaction; the first floors are the ones that take longer to crumble but it accelerates as it gets more pressure and momentum from the fall.

A quick aside: there is a crucial difference in engineering and physics between a “static” load and a “dynamic” load. For example, when cars used to have robust bumpers, Car A could get behind Car B and push it forward and even push it onto the freeway and gradually speed up to 90 mph. For the most part, neither car will sustain significant damage to their bumpers. This is a static load. There is significant force applied but in a smooth way.

In a slightly different scenario Car B is stationary and Car A is travelling at 90 mph. Car A decides he’s going to push Car B again at 90 mph. But this time the moment Car A makes contact with Car B there is a horrific sound of smashing metal and the gas tank ruptures and catches fire. This is a dynamic load. Even though Car A can push Car B up to 90mph, the second scenario involves sudden acceleration.

So with the WTC towers when everything is fastened together properly, the lower floors support the weight of the upper floors. But when those upper floors undergo an acceleration, now you’re looking at a force the building was not designed to handle.

...
Quora.com br br How did a plane crash on the uppe... (show quote)


The beams softened in the fires. The upper floors above the impact collapsed and overloaded the structure below and the whole thing went down in an accordion/domino effect with each set of floors putting even more of an overload on the ones below so that towards the bottom the collapse was going even faster.

Reply
Feb 19, 2023 15:06:07   #
srg
 
bcheary wrote:
Quora.com

How did a plane crash on the upper floors of the World Trade Center result in the entire building collapsing?

That’s a legitimate question, and kudos for not just automatically declaring “ergo conspiracy”.

In fact, the damage caused by the aircraft impacting the towers — even at the high rate of speed they were traveling — was not fatal to either tower. These structures were famously designed and constructed to flex in strong gale-force winds or earthquakes, and even absorb the impact of the largest commercial aircraft at the time which was a Boeing 707 four-engine passenger jet. You can’t really tell from available video or film footage, but the initial impact caused the upper section of the structures to displace 10–20 feet from the center of gravity, and then swayed back like a pendulum. People who were up there and survived said it felt like they were going to capsize. So up to this point the buildings performed beautifully, testament to the soundness of the engineering and the redundancies in redistributing stress loads. So, what happened to cause total failure?

The fires is what happened. Ah, come on! Jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt steel. And how could a bunch of paper and office furniture burn at such high temperatures?

One needs to understand that heat causes steel to expand and warp, and lose structural strength. Think of a Japanese sword maker. He’s heating that very hard steel over a simple carbon fire. The steel hasn’t melted, but it has become softened and malleable to the extent he can fold it and hammer it, over and over.

Normally, if a fire starts in an electrical closet, it will burn everything in that immediate area and then progress to other areas. Overhead sprinkler systems and fire fighters will usually get things under control before it gets out of hand. But on 9/11, those planes were fueled for a cross-continental flight. So at the moment of impact there was a deflagration of 10,000 gallons of jet fuel which ignited large fires on 2 or 3 floors simultaneously. This is way beyond the pale in terms of manageability by fire fighters even under the best of circumstances. But in this case we have the water pipes which fed the sprinkler system severed. We have an elevator system rendered inoperative. And we have thousands of people who need to be evacuated. This was a very grave situation.

Okay, this is way up in the upper portions of the structure. How could those fires have affected lower floors? What caused them to fail?

This is so. The fires had virtually no impact on the lower 50 stories. The steel that was affected by fire was the trusses and columns in the impact zone. For Truthers who question the severity of the fires, please explain why so many people jumped to their deaths from the area above the fires. Police helicopter footage shows the perimeter columns on the floors of the impact zone bowing outward in the minutes before the collapse. The steel that was holding up all the floors above this zone was getting ready to buckle. And buckle it did. This resulted in a 25-story building falling 12 feet. That is a dynamic load the floor below cannot stand up to. Now you have a 26-story building falling onto the next floor down…and so on.

Think of it as tower of cards; you destroy the entire section of the 51st floor; the sections over them fall and add more pressure damaging the full structure and another floor goes down. It’s a chain reaction; the first floors are the ones that take longer to crumble but it accelerates as it gets more pressure and momentum from the fall.

A quick aside: there is a crucial difference in engineering and physics between a “static” load and a “dynamic” load. For example, when cars used to have robust bumpers, Car A could get behind Car B and push it forward and even push it onto the freeway and gradually speed up to 90 mph. For the most part, neither car will sustain significant damage to their bumpers. This is a static load. There is significant force applied but in a smooth way.

In a slightly different scenario Car B is stationary and Car A is travelling at 90 mph. Car A decides he’s going to push Car B again at 90 mph. But this time the moment Car A makes contact with Car B there is a horrific sound of smashing metal and the gas tank ruptures and catches fire. This is a dynamic load. Even though Car A can push Car B up to 90mph, the second scenario involves sudden acceleration.

So with the WTC towers when everything is fastened together properly, the lower floors support the weight of the upper floors. But when those upper floors undergo an acceleration, now you’re looking at a force the building was not designed to handle.

...
Quora.com br br How did a plane crash on the uppe... (show quote)


There was a third building that was not hit, but came down in the same way.

Reply
 
 
Feb 19, 2023 15:50:13   #
therwol Loc: USA
 
CaltechNerd wrote:
Excellent analysis. One thing the architects/engineers missed was how much paper and wooden furniture would be placed in each office. Spray it with burning jet fuel and the inevitable happened.


The jet fuel seeped through the building and ignited many fires that burned for weeks after the incident. Read just the first part of this.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/world-trade-center

Reply
Feb 19, 2023 16:43:01   #
Drbobcameraguy Loc: Eaton Ohio
 
bcheary wrote:
Quora.com

How did a plane crash on the upper floors of the World Trade Center result in the entire building collapsing?

That’s a legitimate question, and kudos for not just automatically declaring “ergo conspiracy”.

In fact, the damage caused by the aircraft impacting the towers — even at the high rate of speed they were traveling — was not fatal to either tower. These structures were famously designed and constructed to flex in strong gale-force winds or earthquakes, and even absorb the impact of the largest commercial aircraft at the time which was a Boeing 707 four-engine passenger jet. You can’t really tell from available video or film footage, but the initial impact caused the upper section of the structures to displace 10–20 feet from the center of gravity, and then swayed back like a pendulum. People who were up there and survived said it felt like they were going to capsize. So up to this point the buildings performed beautifully, testament to the soundness of the engineering and the redundancies in redistributing stress loads. So, what happened to cause total failure?

The fires is what happened. Ah, come on! Jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt steel. And how could a bunch of paper and office furniture burn at such high temperatures?

One needs to understand that heat causes steel to expand and warp, and lose structural strength. Think of a Japanese sword maker. He’s heating that very hard steel over a simple carbon fire. The steel hasn’t melted, but it has become softened and malleable to the extent he can fold it and hammer it, over and over.

Normally, if a fire starts in an electrical closet, it will burn everything in that immediate area and then progress to other areas. Overhead sprinkler systems and fire fighters will usually get things under control before it gets out of hand. But on 9/11, those planes were fueled for a cross-continental flight. So at the moment of impact there was a deflagration of 10,000 gallons of jet fuel which ignited large fires on 2 or 3 floors simultaneously. This is way beyond the pale in terms of manageability by fire fighters even under the best of circumstances. But in this case we have the water pipes which fed the sprinkler system severed. We have an elevator system rendered inoperative. And we have thousands of people who need to be evacuated. This was a very grave situation.

Okay, this is way up in the upper portions of the structure. How could those fires have affected lower floors? What caused them to fail?

This is so. The fires had virtually no impact on the lower 50 stories. The steel that was affected by fire was the trusses and columns in the impact zone. For Truthers who question the severity of the fires, please explain why so many people jumped to their deaths from the area above the fires. Police helicopter footage shows the perimeter columns on the floors of the impact zone bowing outward in the minutes before the collapse. The steel that was holding up all the floors above this zone was getting ready to buckle. And buckle it did. This resulted in a 25-story building falling 12 feet. That is a dynamic load the floor below cannot stand up to. Now you have a 26-story building falling onto the next floor down…and so on.

Think of it as tower of cards; you destroy the entire section of the 51st floor; the sections over them fall and add more pressure damaging the full structure and another floor goes down. It’s a chain reaction; the first floors are the ones that take longer to crumble but it accelerates as it gets more pressure and momentum from the fall.

A quick aside: there is a crucial difference in engineering and physics between a “static” load and a “dynamic” load. For example, when cars used to have robust bumpers, Car A could get behind Car B and push it forward and even push it onto the freeway and gradually speed up to 90 mph. For the most part, neither car will sustain significant damage to their bumpers. This is a static load. There is significant force applied but in a smooth way.

In a slightly different scenario Car B is stationary and Car A is travelling at 90 mph. Car A decides he’s going to push Car B again at 90 mph. But this time the moment Car A makes contact with Car B there is a horrific sound of smashing metal and the gas tank ruptures and catches fire. This is a dynamic load. Even though Car A can push Car B up to 90mph, the second scenario involves sudden acceleration.

So with the WTC towers when everything is fastened together properly, the lower floors support the weight of the upper floors. But when those upper floors undergo an acceleration, now you’re looking at a force the building was not designed to handle.

...
Quora.com br br How did a plane crash on the uppe... (show quote)


I want to know why the 3rd building collapsed. The shorter on that took no damage from the crashes.

Reply
Feb 19, 2023 16:59:58   #
bcheary Loc: Jacksonville, FL
 
srg wrote:
There was a third building that was not hit, but came down in the same way.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7485331.stm

Interesting who occupied that building.
"The third tower was occupied by the Secret Service, the CIA, the Department of Defense and the Office of Emergency Management, which would co-ordinate any response to a disaster or a terrorist attack."

Reply
Feb 19, 2023 17:02:00   #
bcheary Loc: Jacksonville, FL
 
Drbobcameraguy wrote:
I want to know why the 3rd building collapsed. The shorter on that took no damage from the crashes.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7485331.stm

Reply
 
 
Feb 19, 2023 19:32:41   #
srg
 
bcheary wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7485331.stm

Interesting who occupied that building.
"The third tower was occupied by the Secret Service, the CIA, the Department of Defense and the Office of Emergency Management, which would co-ordinate any response to a disaster or a terrorist attack."


And yet it came down into a relatively neat pile at terminal velocity, just like the two towers.

Reply
Feb 19, 2023 22:28:59   #
ChuckMc Loc: Prescott, AZ
 
"Jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt steel."
I remember two overpasses in California on separate occasions collapsing due to vehicle fires underneath them.
Which burns hotter, gasoline or jet fuel?
The one in Oakland was a tanker. https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/us/30collapse.html
Chuck

Reply
Feb 19, 2023 22:55:31   #
yssirk123 Loc: New Jersey
 
bcheary wrote:
Wow! I couldn't imagine what was going through your head at that time! I watched it on TV and was appalled at the sight of those towers crumbling down and people jumping out of windows. A sad day for all.


bcheary I will always remember that day - never forget.

Reply
Feb 20, 2023 07:26:51   #
kerry12 Loc: Harrisburg, Pa.
 
fourlocks wrote:
The beams were coated with a spray-foam fire retardant. Unfortunately, the initial blast from the crashing plane and exploding fuel stripped the retardant away exposing the bare metal to the extreme heat. As Therwol noted, the steel didn't have to melt, it just had to become soft enough that it no longer supported the building's weight. As I recall there was a good NOVA on the subject that explained exactly how the buildings collapsed.



Reply
 
 
Feb 20, 2023 09:12:13   #
srron Loc: Courtice,On.
 
Years ago (after 911) there was a document signed by over 400 engineers stating that the buildings would not collapse from such an impact. Also many pilots will tell you it would take a lot of skill and experience to hit a specific target, skills and experience which the terrorists involved didn't have.

Reply
Feb 20, 2023 12:35:14   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
yssirk123 wrote:
I was in an AT&T building on 9-11 and watched the 2nd tower come down from 13 blocks away. It seemed surreal as there was just the briefest pause between each of the lower floors giving way.


Err, there was exactly 30 minutes between the tower collapse, not the 'briefest pause'.

The collapse of the World Trade Center occurred during the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, after the Twin Towers were struck by two hijacked commercial airliners. One World Trade Center (WTC 1, or the North Tower) was hit at 8:46 a.m. Eastern time and collapsed at 10:28 a.m. Two World Trade Center (WTC 2, or the South Tower) was hit at 9:03 a.m. and collapsed at 9:58 a.m. The resulting debris severely damaged or destroyed more than a dozen other adjacent and nearby structures, ultimately leading to the collapse of 7 World Trade Center at 5:21 p.m. A total of 2,763 people were killed in the crashes, fires, and subsequent collapses, including 2,192 civilians, 343 firefighters, and 71 law enforcement officers as well as all the passengers and crew on the airplanes, which included 147 civilians and the 10 hijackers.

Reply
Feb 20, 2023 12:46:07   #
bcheary Loc: Jacksonville, FL
 
yssirk123 wrote:
bcheary I will always remember that day - never forget.


Amen.

Reply
Feb 20, 2023 12:49:22   #
bcheary Loc: Jacksonville, FL
 
srg wrote:
And yet it came down into a relatively neat pile at terminal velocity, just like the two towers.


Interesting.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 3 next>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.