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Small apertures
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Feb 12, 2023 12:33:33   #
BebuLamar
 
Architect1776 wrote:
I turn the aperture ring (Control) or dial on the camera to the smallest and it stays there or wherever I want it. Easily visible in the bottom of the viewfinder.


Does it has the marking as to which aperture it set to? I know some of the Fuji X series lenses do have such a markings but not on Canon EF or RF lenses even though they have the aperture ring. The camera can limit what the aperture ring can do with the RF lenses. It actually has no mechanical linkage to the lens aperture (which is the good thing but it also doesn't dictate the aperture. It's under the camera controls)

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Feb 12, 2023 14:23:02   #
epd1947
 
Architect1776 wrote:
I see many articles and much discussion here about diffraction with small apertures.
If diffraction is so destructive (Easily shown in review examples) then why do modern lenses for digital cameras still have small apertures such as f11, 22, 32 etc?
Would not changing shutter speed, ISO or a ND filter be better?
Just was reading a review where this came up again and the question occurred to me as to why these small apertures exist any more.
Thank you to the experts who can explain the justification of sacrificing quality by using smaller apertures or if there is a work around , excluding software faking it.
I see many articles and much discussion here about... (show quote)


Most lenses are at their peak of critical sharpness somewhere in the middle of the aperture range -does that mean apertures wider than say f/4 or f/5.6 should be eliminated as options? Slower shutter speeds often lead to motion blur - should those slower speeds be removed too? My point is that having options is a plus - you just need to recognize where specific options might negatively impact your results (and to what extent) and then work within any meaningful issues.

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Feb 12, 2023 14:31:49   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
epd1947 wrote:
Most lenses are at their peak of critical sharpness somewhere in the middle of the aperture range -does that mean apertures wider than say f/4 or f/5.6 should be eliminated as options? Slower shutter speeds often lead to motion blur - should those slower speeds be removed too? My point is that having options is a plus - you just need to recognize where specific options might negatively impact your results (and to what extent) and then work within any meaningful issues.


Options? Good. Limits? bad. Testing for real world practicality? PRICELESS!

I test everything. I don't want surprises. I want good images. Testing and experimentation give me the confidence I need to concentrate on the visual "message" and rely on the hardware to do its job.

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Feb 12, 2023 15:20:12   #
delder Loc: Maryland
 
Architect1776 wrote:
In other words adding fake manipulations through software.
That was part of the question.


This discussion ties in with the previous post about the AI creation winning a Photo Contest.

We ARE living in an amazing time.

Don't forget, graphics is not the ONLY field of?
[Art?, Creativity?, Technology?]
having this discussion.

AI bots are now writing articles, responses to queries and college papers.

I am certain that this discussion will continue on UHH.

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Feb 12, 2023 15:24:22   #
User ID
 
Delderby wrote:
It all depends on the type of photography. I don't do birding but I do do landscape, so I often need smaller apertures
- especially with my my M4/3.

In m43 all apertures are small apertures. Thaz one major reason I really love m43.

M43 is only for us fearless ones. Peepers are such a fearful and paranoid bunch.

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Feb 12, 2023 15:31:25   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
burkphoto wrote:
Options? Good. Limits? bad. Testing for real world practicality? PRICELESS!

I test everything. I don't want surprises. I want good images. Testing and experimentation give me the confidence I need to concentrate on the visual "message" and rely on the hardware to do its job.


Absolutely!!!

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Feb 12, 2023 16:01:12   #
Luft93 Loc: Finger Lakes, NY
 
larryepage wrote:
Diffraction is an interference phenomenon. It is not created by refraction or other "bending" of light. (It's generally demonstrated with a very narrow mechanical slit or with a diffraction grating...essentially a large number of slits lined up side by side). It also occurs at a single sharp edge but is usually pretty hard to detect in that case. The rule is, the narrower the slit or other opening, the stronger the diffraction.

Since shorter focal length lenses have a smaller aperture for a goven f/stop, it would also be expected to produce greater diffraction. f/64 on lenses used on view cameras was still a relatively large physical opening, so diffraction wasn’t a big concern. But for the smallest sensor sizes, short focal length lenses are used even for normal and some telephoto lenses. Apertures are tiny, and diffraction appears early. It's one of the tradeoffs of modern photography.

I would say that for most of us, the problems created by diffraction at small apertures is way down the list of things we need to be worrying about to make our photography better. A quick look at images posted here and on other sites does not reveal diffraction as a high-priority item to be fixed to make photographs "better."
Diffraction is an interference phenomenon. It is n... (show quote)


This is the best reply here although others can be helpful if thought through.

It must be unstood that diffracting exists in all
Lenses at all apatures It is a product of light passing past an edge. This a matter of actual physical demansion and the wavelength of the light. Lens designers use criteria that determine that smallest aperture. Larger physical dimensions allow larger f/numbers. In the end the proportion of defracted image light to non-apature effected light increases as the F/number increas. The cumulative effects of diffraction become increasingly visible.

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Feb 12, 2023 17:09:19   #
Dennis833 Loc: Australia
 
I've stopped down to F90 on a large format camera and no one has ever commented about any diffraction. IMO the image itself is more important.

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Feb 12, 2023 17:28:20   #
User ID
 
Dennis833 wrote:
I've stopped down to F90 on a large format camera and no one has ever commented about any diffraction. IMO the image itself is more important.

F/90 on 8x10 is about equivalent to f/11 on APSC. For other comparisons just do the arithmetic.

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Feb 12, 2023 20:25:30   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
User ID wrote:
F/90 on 8x10 is about equivalent to f/11 on APSC. For other comparisons just do the arithmetic.


Beautiful!

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Feb 12, 2023 21:30:17   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
dennis2146 wrote:
I have generally used an aperture of f16 for macro photography and have never noticed any diffraction. Yes, I have heard it can be a negative but I have not seen it OR don't know what to look for. But apparently if it was so bad I would have noticed something negative over the years.

Dennis



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Feb 12, 2023 22:43:08   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
User ID wrote:
F/90 on 8x10 is about equivalent to f/11 on APSC. For other comparisons just do the arithmetic.


Yep. Equivalent diffraction limiting of sharpness apertures vary by sensor or film size and resolution. That is why I said earlier that it is so important to RUN YOUR OWN TESTS.

On Micro 4/3 16MP sensor, I like f/4 and f/5.6.

On APS-C 15MP sensor, I liked f/5.6 and f/8.

On Full Frame 20 MP sensor, AND most 35mm films, I liked f/8 and f/11.

That said, different lenses will affect the results differently. Generally, very fast lenses will perform better if used at wider apertures.

Test, test, TEST, test, test, test, TEST.

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Feb 12, 2023 22:48:00   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
For those unsure how to test, the testing process is easy using digital technology. Simply set-up a tripod and walk the aperture. Of course, the subject matter is important, but it doesn't have to be a grand landscape. Anyone can walk out their door this morning, and assuming it's not foggy or raining, just shoot down your own street. Set a fixed focus point roughly 1/3 into the frame, set the camera to aperture priority, and capture 3 images / takes at each aperture setting, min to max.

Since you've agreed to run this experiment, reset to the max aperture and turn the camera so the horizon passes through one of the corners of the frame, since 'corner sharpness' is one of the quality items on lens reviews. This slanted approach give you 'image detail', rather than blank sky, in one of the corners for a better assessment.

Walk back into the house and offload your images and review the results on your computer monitor. Pick two or three points of comparison, such as center frame, foreground, and far (upper) left or right corner. For the leveled composition, just cycle through every image at the same point of comparison. You'll see with your own eyes where nothing gets better, and then, where things start to get worse. I don't even have to be there at your monitor with finger pointed at your screen. That point of diminished returns will fall between f/13 and f/18 for your DSLR. It will be even easier to point to when looking at the slanted frames from your test.

Your other format cameras may be different, see the discussion, above.

From the image review, incorporate this knowledge into your shooting technique when using this camera and lens combo. Repeat as often as needed for all relevant lenses and cameras.

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Feb 12, 2023 23:00:49   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
For those unsure how to test, the testing process is easy using digital technology. Simply set-up a tripod and walk the aperture. Of course, the subject matter is important, but it doesn't have to be a grand landscape. Anyone can walk out their door this morning, and assuming it's not foggy or raining, just shoot down your own street. Set a fixed focus point roughly 1/3 into the frame, set the camera to aperture priority, and capture 3 images / takes at each aperture setting, min to max.

Since you've agreed to run this experiment, reset to the max aperture and turn the camera so the horizon passes through one of the corners of the frame, since 'corner sharpness' is one of the quality items on lens reviews. This slanted approach give you 'image detail', rather than blank sky, in one of the corners for a better assessment.

Walk back into the house and offload your images and review the results on your computer monitor. Pick two or three points of comparison, such as center frame, foreground, and far (upper) left or right corner. For the leveled composition, just cycle through every image at the same point of comparison. You'll see with your own eyes where nothing gets better, and then, where things start to get worse. I don't even have to be there at your monitor with finger pointed at your screen. That point of diminished returns will fall between f/13 and f/18 for your DSLR. It will be even easier to point to when looking at the slanted frames from your test.

Your other format cameras may be different, see the discussion, above.

From the image review, incorporate this knowledge into your shooting technique when using this camera and lens combo. Repeat as often as needed for all relevant lenses and cameras.
For those unsure how to test, the testing process ... (show quote)


I concur wholeheartedly.

The larger the print you want to make, the larger the aperture you will learn is the diffraction limiting aperture. The smaller the magnification, the smaller the aperture you can get away with using.

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Feb 12, 2023 23:29:15   #
btbg
 
Architect1776 wrote:
I see many articles and much discussion here about diffraction with small apertures.
If diffraction is so destructive (Easily shown in review examples) then why do modern lenses for digital cameras still have small apertures such as f11, 22, 32 etc?
Would not changing shutter speed, ISO or a ND filter be better?
Just was reading a review where this came up again and the question occurred to me as to why these small apertures exist any more.
Thank you to the experts who can explain the justification of sacrificing quality by using smaller apertures or if there is a work around , excluding software faking it.
I see many articles and much discussion here about... (show quote)


The only workaround to small f stops is focus stacking. Lets say that the wind is blowing. Then focus stacking will not be an option. So, if I want an object close to the camera lens in the foreground and also want the background in focus then the only options there are is to focus stack or use f22. None of the changes that you suggest will give adequate depth of field in that situation.

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