Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
A friend asked me a question about RAW...
Page <<first <prev 5 of 8 next> last>>
Aug 27, 2022 13:04:50   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
imagemeister wrote:
What is truly amazing to me is that for some (many) people shooting raw, how little they really know about how it works.
.


Remember, ignorance is bliss!

---

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 13:58:19   #
MJPerini
 
I have a Guess about what might have happened. I have heard similar things at craft shows, and what they often mean by "not edited" is something like 'no extensive changes' like sky replacements, or huge changes in saturation levels. The reason being that sometimes people construe 'editing' with this isn't a real representation of a natural scene. I've heard people ask "is this Photoshopped or real" (equating Photoshop with Photo illustration)

So rather than give the full explanation of of the RAW conversion process and basic image editing a thousand times, it gets turned into I shoot raw and this is not "EDITED" (using the negative definition of 'editing' many people have)
I certainly don't know that to be the case, but suspect it might be.

The second thing I would mention to "your friend" is that the quality of in camera JPEGs has improved quite a bit over the years and most cameras allow a degree of customization or preset looks (Fujifilm's Velvia Preset comes to mind) that might save her from learning raw conversion if she would like a simpler path to the look she likes.

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 14:02:35   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
ricardo00 wrote:
I will be interested to hear other's comments but think your friend was "misled" by the photographer at the craft fair.


Definitely! If you shoot raw, you have to process to get a good image. By "good," I mean as good as, or better than, JPEG.

Reply
 
 
Aug 27, 2022 14:08:38   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
Bill_de wrote:
Remember, ignorance is bliss!

---



Reply
Aug 27, 2022 14:10:46   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
I maintain that even JPGs can be made "vibrant" by someone with good editing skills. Furthermore, many cameras allow setting brightness, color, tint and saturation adjustments and more in camera. The additional fine control of color and dynamic range are mostly lost when viewed on common digital displays.

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 14:15:48   #
FunkyL Loc: MD
 
MJPerini wrote:
I have a Guess about what might have happened. I have heard similar things at craft shows, and what they often mean by "not edited" is something like 'no extensive changes' like sky replacements, or huge changes in saturation levels. The reason being that sometimes people construe 'editing' with this isn't a real representation of a natural scene. I've heard people ask "is this Photoshopped or real" (equating Photoshop with Photo illustration)

So rather than give the full explanation of of the RAW conversion process and basic image editing a thousand times, it gets turned into I shoot raw and this is not "EDITED" (using the negative definition of 'editing' many people have)
I certainly don't know that to be the case, but suspect it might be.

The second thing I would mention to "your friend" is that the quality of in camera JPEGs has improved quite a bit over the years and most cameras allow a degree of customization or preset looks (Fujifilm's Velvia Preset comes to mind) that might save her from learning raw conversion if she would like a simpler path to the look she likes.
I have a Guess about what might have happened. I ... (show quote)


You may well be correct as to how the whole puzzle got started, and I can understand a photographer wanting to avoid long technical discussions, especially while trying to make a living at a craft fair. I suspect my friend will want to stick with jpegs, but may want to explore the presets available in her current or next camera.

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 14:51:51   #
User ID
 
cjc2 wrote:
P L E A S E do NOT confuse these idiotic arguments with FACTS, which will be ignored by most. I get a big kick out of reading posts such as this just to see what all the uneducated say. Can be quite entertaining when I have time to participate! Just finished editing and publishing my football assignment from last night. Best of luck.

I read less than half that post cuz it was exceeeeedingly tedious. Based on water under the bridge thus far, I can say its not really seriously wrong "info" or non facts. Its just a reeeeally loose raggedy mash up of facts and factoids.

IOW, he hasnt got all his ducks in row, but hes got most of them swimming in more or less the same direction.

At least thaz my take on the first 1/4 or 1/3 of the essay. No way would I read any more of it :-(


(Download)

Reply
 
 
Aug 27, 2022 15:15:38   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
bkwaters wrote:
For arguments sake let’s say you shoot identical photos in RAW and standard mode JPEG on your Canon. You then use your camera’s standard profile in Lightroom and export without any additional processing as a JPEG. Will the made in camera JPEG look any different than the LRC processed JPEG you’ll use for printing or posting on social media? I suspect the answer is no. Obviously, if there’s an issue with your camera’s standard mode processing choices, and you want to override them, you will get the best results with more extreme post-processing using a RAW file. So the real answer is, in the absence of additional post-processing, an in camera JPEG is not any different than an identically processed RAW file. Am I correct?
For arguments sake let’s say you shoot identical p... (show quote)


To your specific scenario (LR RAW import, then Camera Standard Profile, then export), this image will be rather different than the JPEG from the camera. The difference is mostly how LR applies default settings to all RAW imports, specifically in the noise reduction and sharpening. LR applies the same defaults to all RAW images from all camera models and without regard to the ISO value of the specific image. Your camera's "standard" profile will have different settings, as well as some different processing of White Balance and probably some auto-toning of the exposure / contrast as occurs in-camera. Your camera actually addresses the specifics of the ISO setting for NR, as well as a different approach to sharpening.

RAW gives you more latitude in editing, because of the exponentially larger amount (bit-depth) of color data in the RAW file. JPEG has plenty of data for editing, but within a narrower 'range' of possible updates before you start getting abnormal / unexpected problems in the color shading.

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 15:18:22   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
imagemeister wrote:
What is truly amazing to me is that for some (many) people shooting raw, how little they really know about how it works.
.


When you change to shooting in RAW, you already know you're a better photographer.

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 15:36:02   #
mrgarci Loc: Albuquerque, NM
 
I agree with cjc2’s comment that likens Raw to a digital version of a negative from the film days. Ansel Adams said, “I have often said that the negative is similar to a musician's score, and the print to the performance of that score. The negative comes to life only when "performed" as a print.” Similarly, the “raw” data from a camera’s image sensor only comes to life with post-processing. You can decide to let the camera do the performance/post-processing into a JPEG image or you can take the raw file and do your own performance/post-processing using whatever photo editing tools you desire. You can only have one version of the raw sensor data, but you can have infinite versions of JPEG, TIFF, etc. performances. Trying to compare a negative (raw sensor data) to a print (JPEG) makes no sense.

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 16:06:14   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
User ID wrote:
UHH SOP:
The reader should always beware of any thread title about "A Friend" !!!

As reported from him to her to you, it makes no sense, as youve noted.

It makes great sense if you correct one word. He says the images are not edited.

Clearly they are processed cuz he shoots raw. Now that we know he has a flawed vocabulary, common sense tells us that he really means "not enhanced in post" when he says "not edited".

Sometimes, little things mean a lot !
Just fix that one little word.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Worth noting. Theres some possibility that he means (almost) exactly what he says. In some instances, if you optimize all your SOOC settings you can directly use your "unedited" raw files for printing or display.

Acoarst the pix are not really unedited. They were edited by the raw processor which "respected" the camera settings for style, color, sharpening, etc. Certain raw processors supplied by the camera maker will do that (I dont recall which ones).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Its also possible the photographer did not say the pix were "unedited". That might be a distortion introduced in your friends relating to you what the photographer had said ... or even by you reporting to us what your friend had told you.
UHH SOP: br b The reader should always beware of ... (show quote)


What does Acoarst mean? Is that just the current, touchy-feely, in-crowd, way to say "of course"?

Reply
 
 
Aug 27, 2022 17:06:46   #
bkwaters
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
To your specific scenario (LR RAW import, then Camera Standard Profile, then export), this image will be rather different than the JPEG from the camera. The difference is mostly how LR applies default settings to all RAW imports, specifically in the noise reduction and sharpening. LR applies the same defaults to all RAW images from all camera models and without regard to the ISO value of the specific image. Your camera's "standard" profile will have different settings, as well as some different processing of White Balance and probably some auto-toning of the exposure / contrast as occurs in-camera. Your camera actually addresses the specifics of the ISO setting for NR, as well as a different approach to sharpening.

RAW gives you more latitude in editing, because of the exponentially larger amount (bit-depth) of color data in the RAW file. JPEG has plenty of data for editing, but within a narrower 'range' of possible updates before you start getting abnormal / unexpected problems in the color shading.
To your specific scenario (LR RAW import, then Cam... (show quote)


I certainly agree RAW is preferred for do it yourself post processing.

On Sony cameras the in camera JPEG is virtually indistinguishable from a JPEG produced from a RAW file by LRC as long as the same camera profile is selected. Sony has Vivid, Landscape, Portrait, etc.. These profiles appear to override the Adobe profiles.

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 17:49:00   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
When you change to shooting in RAW, you already know you're a better photographer.


LOL

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 18:07:55   #
photoman022 Loc: Manchester CT USA
 
I shoot RAW almost exclusively. My RAW photos straight out of camera need post processing, no ifs, ands or buts. The RAW file may have more data than the JPEG, but the JPEG has already been processed in camera. If I do not add contrast, adjust the highlights and shadows, etc., then I have a flat, listless image. As an experiment for a friend I shot her in RAW + JPEG; I was able to extract much more detail (like texture in her hair) from the RAW file than was present in the out of camera JPEG.

Reply
Aug 27, 2022 18:44:19   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
photoman022 wrote:
I shoot RAW almost exclusively. My RAW photos straight out of camera need post processing, no ifs, ands or buts. The RAW file may have more data than the JPEG, but the JPEG has already been processed in camera. If I do not add contrast, adjust the highlights and shadows, etc., then I have a flat, listless image. As an experiment for a friend I shot her in RAW + JPEG; I was able to extract much more detail (like texture in her hair) from the RAW file than was present in the out of camera JPEG.
I shoot RAW almost exclusively. My RAW photos str... (show quote)


So, it seems not everyone has the same experience and that it varies WIDELY ! ? .....since there is no standardization regarding ANY aspect of shooting raw ! ?

Reply
Page <<first <prev 5 of 8 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.