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Mirrorless EVF verses viewfinders
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May 6, 2022 13:46:48   #
petrochemist Loc: UK
 
When talking about visualisation of the image I think most photographers are refering to things like movement blur. You can set an EVF up to show this (or not if you find it distracting). Then there's white balance, DOF...

For macro, low light & infra red the EVF allows the image to be seen even when a OVF would be completely black.

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May 6, 2022 13:53:21   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
kymarto wrote:
I have no problem revising my statement to say that what you see is an educated interpretation of the RAW data recorded by the sensor, in accordance with the manufacturer's preferences.

Yes, the EVF is as far away from the RAW data as JPEGs have historically been.
kymarto wrote:
Clearly you can't see RAW data. That the RAW data can be crunched in a way to yield a variety of results goes without saying.

Yes, that's not a concern. I think for most people the concern involves exposure and exposure accuracy. It would be really nice if we could rely on the EVF and more importantly exposure aids like the highlight clipping warning to directly indicate what's captured by the raw file rather than what's processed into the JPEG. Unfortunately what we get is the JPEG and that can be as much as a stop or more different (depending on the camera make/model).

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May 6, 2022 14:09:32   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
rmalarz wrote:
Gene, though that may be, it's not enough for me to transition to mirrorless. Additionally, I don't use stabilization. Only a few of my lenses have it. So, it's sort of a feature I forget I have on the lenses that have that feature.
--Bob


I'm not planning on it either - though I do use and much enjoy my RX10M4. But transitioning is not in the near future. Unless something breaks or I can get a really good one that makes better images than my D810. Yeah, I still use one of those.

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May 6, 2022 14:59:44   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
Toby wrote:
First, thanks to all of you for sticking to the subject and not adding snarky answers or non-problem-solving comments which would have wasted your and my time. You have shown me that despite what I all too frequently see on here, many of you are genuinely interested in helping others with good advice related to the topic question.
You all have given me a ton of info and answered questions that I had not even thought of asking. It is getting pretty difficult for me to not buy a new mirrorless. The only thing left before buying is to find someone who lives in my area (Toledo OH) that I can meet with and try their camera and discuss their experiences or rent one.
Thanks again for the excellent responses.
Toby
First, thanks to all of you for sticking to the su... (show quote)


If you cannot find someone to try their camera, just try renting the camera you think you might like to buy for a week. Yes, it would make for a slight extra expense, but in the long run would give you the real time information that you are looking for.

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May 6, 2022 15:04:42   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
Gene51 wrote:
I'm not planning on it either - though I do use and much enjoy my RX10M4. But transitioning is not in the near future. Unless something breaks or I can get a really good one that makes better images than my D810. Yeah, I still use one of those.


Technology only goes so far. After that, it becomes the responsibility of the photographer to use that technology to capture what he sees. DSLR or mirrorless or smartphone - whatever it takes to get the shot.

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May 6, 2022 15:14:20   #
Jersey guy Loc: New Joisey
 
Toby wrote:
First, thanks to all of you for sticking to the subject and not adding snarky answers or non-problem-solving comments which would have wasted your and my time. You have shown me that despite what I all too frequently see on here, many of you are genuinely interested in helping others with good advice related to the topic question.
You all have given me a ton of info and answered questions that I had not even thought of asking. It is getting pretty difficult for me to not buy a new mirrorless. The only thing left before buying is to find someone who lives in my area (Toledo OH) that I can meet with and try their camera and discuss their experiences or rent one.
Thanks again for the excellent responses.
Toby
First, thanks to all of you for sticking to the su... (show quote)


The only thing left before buying is to find someone to loan me a few grand. ๐Ÿ™„

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May 6, 2022 15:37:35   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
wdross wrote:
If you cannot find someone to try their camera, just try renting the camera you think you might like to buy for a week. Yes, it would make for a slight extra expense, but in the long run would give you the real time information that you are looking for.


While I agree that this is helpful, it is not really an answer. When I transitioned from DSLR to mirrorless it felt completely strange. Nothing seemed in the right place. It was too small. It took a week to even begin to get comfortable. A month to feel relatively competent. After my first Arctic shooting assignments it felt like part of my body and I realized how much easier and more efficient it was than shooting (both stills and video) than with my D800 and the 5D3 from work.

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May 6, 2022 16:09:57   #
WillieWisconsin
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
When I first looked into the electronic view finder, I saw the future.
I saw shooting stars and comet tail.
I saw heaven with my eye.


Your life must be pretty dull if it takes an electronic viewfinder to excite you that much. But I guess, to each his own.

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May 6, 2022 16:13:58   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
That's not quite what I said. Backing off your original statement that the EVF shows you EXACTLY what the sensor is capturing, you said it's a conservative readout of the sensor data. I replied, "It's inconsistently conservative over a wide range that can encompass more than 1/2 of the sensor's recording capacity." That could use some clarification but it is correct. Your revised point I think means to say that the EVF simulation when displaying a good JPEG without clipped highlights can be relied on to deliver a sensor exposure without clipped highlights. Yes, but my qualification to that is it's variable over a wide range and with some cameras when taking that exposure, leaving the sensor underutilized by more than 1/2 it's capacity (or not). It depends on the scene photographed because it depends on the JPEG processing.

Quick example I grabbed my Fuji X-T4 ran out back and took two photos of my wife's chives in bloom. The photos are below. The camera's exposure is good -- tad dark -- everything is set to default. The EVF showed me the camera JPEG you see below. I then exposed for the full capacity of the sensor regardless of the appearance of the EVF and processed my version of the photo you see below on the right. How conservative was the camera/EVF exposure compared to my full sensor capacity exposure? Way over 1/2 the sensor's capacity. The difference in exposure is 1.7 stops. With a higher contrast scene the discrepancy would be less -- as I said it's variably conservative. This behavior is camera specific. I have Canon, Fuji, Nikon and Leica mirrorless cameras and they don't all behave the same in terms of degree but all are variably conservative with the Fuji often exposing and failing to use 1/2 the sensor's capacity, the Canon doing so regularly, the Leica doing so occasionally and the Nikon doing so infrequently.
That's not quite what I said. Backing off your ori... (show quote)

I love the "look" of that on the right ๐ŸŽ๐ŸŽ๐Ÿงจ๐ŸŽ๐ŸŽ

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May 6, 2022 16:19:13   #
User ID
 
StanMac wrote:
Why are you on here?

Stan


If you cant stomach inconvenient facts, just read someone else.

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May 6, 2022 16:22:03   #
User ID
 
sippyjug104 wrote:
Is not a smartphone a "mirrorless camera"...?

No. Its just a digital camera. There arent really any "mirrorless" cameras.

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May 6, 2022 16:53:47   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
Hip Coyote wrote:
No, they (we) are saying that the EVF gives you a very good representation of what the image will look like.
The image is the image as it hits the sensor. But the EVF allows you to see pretty much how the image will look. A DSLR will not do that through the view finder. For instance, as you reduce the exposure compensation, the image in the EVF gets darker. (Yes, this feature can be turned off which I do, such as flash photography in dark environments. ) Do that on a DSLR and there is no change in the way the image looks to you. (The histogram and exposure settings do change.) So, it is a wysiwyg situation. For me, it helps me visualize and exposue the image the way I want.

Re sports, no one i know watches the screen or keeps their eye away from the view finder ...never seen it. Look at any sporting event where pros are shooting. Mirrorless has many benefits in rapidly changing situations...metering is metering so that is not really the issue. Mirrorless can have many more exposures per second than a mirror camera due to the limitations of flipping the mirror up and down. Mirrorless can have a mechanical shutter or an electronic shutter which is amazingly fast. Like 50 shots per second or something like that.

In my Olympus, the camera actually as a pro-capture which allows the user to start recording the scene BEFORE one wants to press the shutter. Those captures are on a loop so as the user keeps holding the button down, the older images get tossed as new ones are made. Then one can use those captures as the image. The system works quite well with birds in flight. Its downright freaky.

An example (for me) are moon shots. People on this forum consistently ask questions about it...most often about exposure. Using a mirrorless system, I was able to see the proper exposure through the evf, knowing that the shot was not gonig to be over exposed. Yes, we can pay attention to the histogram (and I do almost always) but it really helped me get it pretty close to correct in the camera. The viewfinder showed me exactly what I was going to get so I could adjust accordingly. In this case, this was handheld...no tripod. The IBIS in many mirrorless cameras is quite extraordinary.

Another example is when I took a photo of a six piece art installations on a walkway. I could envision them together and what the would look like if I stepped back and reduced exposure quite a bit..to make it look like a line of faces. With a dlsr, I would have to have chimped but not with the evf.

In spite of the ongoing rancor about mirrorless systems vs. dlsrs (a tired tired discussion IMO) mirrorless does offer up features that are helpful for me. Can someone get great shots with a dslr? Absolutely. As an amateur photog, the mirrorless helps me a little.
No, they (we) are saying that the EVF gives you a ... (show quote)


Lovely ๐Ÿ–ค๐Ÿ’ซ๐Ÿ–ค๐Ÿ’ซ๐Ÿ–ค

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May 6, 2022 17:10:14   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
Toby wrote:
I generally like everything I hear about the new mirrorless cameras. One thing that bothers me, however, is the constant comments about the EFV and the ability to see the actual image before it is shot. I do not understand why it is different. Are you saying that the recorded image is simply electronic vs what you see in the view finder? Also, it seems to me that the EVF has no advantage in shooting rapidly changing scenes such as sports because you would need to hold the camera away from your eye to see the image. Am I missing something?
Thanks for input
I generally like everything I hear about the new m... (show quote)


You donโ€™t see the actual image before itโ€™s shot because it doesnโ€™t exist yet, but you can see what they image will look like. Any adjustments to exposure you can see before you shoot. And as someone else said you hold it up to your eye, just like an OVF or you can use the back screen like you were shooting a DSLR in live mode. Two of the newest mirrorless cameras have on if my favorite advantages yet. When you looking through you viewfinder on a DLSR and you take a photo the mirror flips up and the OVF goes black. The shutter fires and then the mirror drops back down again and you can see. If your tracking some action and shooting bursts those blackouts make it difficult to track. With the Nikon Z9, which only has an electronic shutter, and the new Olympus OM-1 when itโ€™s in electronic shutter mode there is no blackout at all. You can see what youโ€™re shooting the entire time.

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May 6, 2022 19:29:07   #
therwol Loc: USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
Unless something breaks or I can get a really good one that makes better images than my D810. Yeah, I still use one of those.


The feature that finally made me buy a D850 when I already had a D810 was the auto lens fine tuning. I seem to recall that you're not a big fan of lens fine tuning, but let's leave that alone. If I were really into it, the D850 can do focus stacking and also has focus peaking in the live view mode. It's also a bit faster at everything. But I've made a point several times based on personal experience and side by side comparisons. The difference in IQ between the two cameras is essentially non-existent. You have to magnify images to 100% and beyond to see any greater detail in the D850 pictures. Well, my son in-law got a fantastic camera as a result of my impulse to buy the D850.

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May 6, 2022 19:53:18   #
Dennis833 Loc: Australia
 
I personally prefer to compose landscape images with an optical viewfinder because I cannot see the full image when there is high contrast. But all of the advantages listed above far out way this small inconvenience and I would never go back.

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