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Question on Low Light Performance Nikon D850 vs Z9 vs D5 vs D6
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Feb 16, 2022 07:47:01   #
mikeroetex Loc: Lafayette, LA
 
MadMikeOne wrote:
SERIOUSLY? How does your response answer my OP?

Chill dude, I only borrowed a few lines of your constantly replenished cyberspace, not your camera.

Instead of asking for input to help buy the next camera, you went on a six paragraph professorial rant on pixel density to show how smart you were. Then in paragraph 7, summarized that your decision came down to cropped sensors in the D5 or D6. You were then summarily dismissive of those who didn’t answer your pontification exactly as ordered.

So yes, I diverted to a sub-post topic vastly more interesting than someone who can’t make up his own mind about what camera to use when 90% of your answers are in YouTube or Google.

So here is direct advice to your OP. Get the Z9. You will be frustrated greatly when you figure out you have to learn an almost entirely different way of focusing and not the old DSLR way. But tech is always changing and the Z line is just a pit stop. DSLRs will be fond antiques on the shelf soon enough, repairs unattainable and you will wonder why you didn’t switch sooner! I’ll be on the lookout for that OP in about 5 years. Hope it is a good read.

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Feb 17, 2022 14:31:49   #
Bill McKenna
 
The Z9 is not better than the D5 or the D6 at high ISOs.

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Feb 17, 2022 14:59:30   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Bill McKenna wrote:
The Z9 is not better than the D5 or the D6 at high ISOs.


No it isn’t - 1/2 to 3/4 stop worse according to testing.

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Feb 17, 2022 16:56:38   #
MadMikeOne Loc: So. NJ Shore - a bit west of Atlantic City
 
mikeroetex wrote:
I gotta side with cjc2 a bit. Your OP implied you wanted the best full frame for low light. It mentioned 4 cameras and not that you were exclusive to those four. It also classified D5 and D6 as crop sensors, which they are not. So room for error both ways. :-)


READ the third sentence in my OP. Doesn't get clearer than that.

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Feb 17, 2022 17:48:16   #
mikeroetex Loc: Lafayette, LA
 
MadMikeOne wrote:
READ the third sentence in my OP. Doesn't get clearer than that.

I see, so you decided on 4 models and did not want to hear from someone experienced with all four that you should consider one better than the four you boxed yourself in to. Totally understandable. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story. At least you got your moniker right, MADMIKE.

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Feb 17, 2022 18:12:43   #
chasgroh Loc: Buena Park, CA
 
Bill McKenna wrote:
The Z9 is not better than the D5 or the D6 at high ISOs.


Do you have one? A D5 or 6 for comparison, or are you relying on a search? I'm looking forward to comparing the Z9 low light output to my D5, I just have to *get* the dang thing. I do know one thing...my D5 kicks ass in low light.

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Feb 18, 2022 04:45:42   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
TriX wrote:
No it isn’t - 1/2 to 3/4 stop worse according to testing.


And that’s a very narrow take on what “better in low light” means. Noise levels tend to be a bigger issue than dynamic range. Ability to focus on low light is important too. Guess who wins that battle by a huge margin.

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Feb 18, 2022 07:46:09   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Low light specifications are like a lot of other specs. They really are useful if understood and interpreted correctly, but end up being a trap and source of disappointment for those who misuse them. The simple fact is that even night vision goggles cannot see in the dark. All sensors and all photographic films need so.e quantity of photons in order to perform their intended function.

Too many people see or hear about a half stop improvement over a previous model or different camera and just literally go nuts over it. In fact, that difference may be detectable in real life or (more likely) it may not.

There is nothing wrong with trying to get a camera to do something beyond its inherent capabilities. I frequently play that game. I used to do the same thing with computers, and before that with stereo equipment, and before that with handheld calculators. It's a lot of fun.

Living "on the edge" is a popular topic today. But living on the edge involves uncertainty.. no guarantees. Sometimes the edge of the cliff gives way, sometimes it doesn't. And you almost never get to choose when that happens and when it doesn't. ( Have you watched any of the Olympics the past couple of weeks?)

I suggest that those working at the limits of their cameras' capabilities just take a breath. Realize that you are in a risky area. Expect that the camera with the most obvious chance of success may not always be the one that delivers the best result.

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Feb 18, 2022 13:24:35   #
sandiegosteve Loc: San Diego, CA
 
I currently shoot with the D500, D750 and D5. While the D500 is very good for a crop camera in lower light, I don't bring it out when ISO is above 4,000 or 5,000. It does ok with noise, but the colors just aren't great. I'm shooting action so I need clean images with fast shutter at high ISO. To me, ISO 8,000-16,000 is high. Editors and clients don't care about the settings, they want clean, sharp images.

D500 is daytime filed sports or if the arena has nice lights (lots of older stadiums still aren't there yet).

D750 is great, but the AF is slow in the dark stuff which lowers my keeper rate. Mostly landscapes and events.

D5 looks as good or better at ISO 12,800 as the D500 does at ISO 5,000. Again, I look at colors and noise. I think my D5 images are cleaner then the D5 and I hit focus more often. A few editors I shoot for always like the D5 images better too.

I can't speak to the Z9, but other people I do shoot with have them and generally still like their D5's above ISO 6400. Some photogs are figuring them out and doing well. So, I think the Z9 is a learning curve with potential. Same group says they like their D6 and it is marginally better than the D5 in a few areas like color rendition, maybe noise and image quality.

I don't know your definition of low light or if you are shooting specific assignments with high ISO needs. This thread is too long to read, so I may have missed many details. I do think it is good to look at certain situations where you feel the D500 falls short. Then, I think we can help. Otherwise, you get a lot of posts about how proud people are of the decisions they made; which for them, they were good decisions.

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Feb 18, 2022 13:34:59   #
JBRIII
 
larryepage wrote:
Low light specifications are like a lot of other specs. They really are useful if understood and interpreted correctly, but end up being a trap and source of disappointment for those who misuse them. The simple fact is that even night vision goggles cannot see in the dark. All sensors and all photographic films need so.e quantity of photons in order to perform their intended function.

Too many people see or hear about a half stop improvement over a previous model or different camera and just literally go nuts over it. In fact, that difference may be detectable in real life or (more likely) it may not.

There is nothing wrong with trying to get a camera to do something beyond its inherent capabilities. I frequently play that game. I used to do the same thing with computers, and before that with stereo equipment, and before that with handheld calculators. It's a lot of fun.

Living "on the edge" is a popular topic today. But living on the edge involves uncertainty.. no guarantees. Sometimes the edge of the cliff gives way, sometimes it doesn't. And you almost never get to choose when that happens and when it doesn't. ( Have you watched any of the Olympics the past couple of weeks?)

I suggest that those working at the limits of their cameras' capabilities just take a breath. Realize that you are in a risky area. Expect that the camera with the most obvious chance of success may not always be the one that delivers the best result.
Low light specifications are like a lot of other s... (show quote)


Even worse is terminology. There are at least three kinds of night vision. 1: cheapess uses light in 750-1100 nm, like IR photography discussed here, maybe $$, trail cameras, toys, 2. Thermal IR like thermometers: $$$ to $$$$, see heat, deer in total dark can be seen from thermal emission of deer, 3. Light amplification, $$$-$$$$, multiply very low level visible light, used in gunsights, some telescope optics, military systems.

Thermal systems are made for cell phones for a $100-200, but resolution is 10,000's of pixels. Even complete systems costing $1000's are generally limited to .5-1 mp.

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Feb 18, 2022 17:12:11   #
Nickaroo
 
Gene51 wrote:
If you are looking to compare cameras with different resolutions, you should be downsampling to the lowest common denominator - which is not the same as cropping. Downsampling (aka resampling to a lower resolution), preserves most of the detail of the hi res capture, and it will average out the noise among pixels - to provide a good basis for comparison.

Here is a technical description of how this happens, and it discusses 4 types of noise that are mitigated when downsampling

https://photographylife.com/why-downsampling-an-image-reduces-noise

If you are printing, there is no need to consider the D500 because it just can't compete with the other cameras you have mentioned - especially if you want to compare uncropped images. The reason being that an uncropped image from a D500 would have to be magnified considerably more to achieve the same print size - it is not so much about pixel density. But a 45 mp image resampled to 20.6 mp would likely be no noisier, and likely record more detail that will still be visible in the downsampled image.

As far as mirrorless cameras are concerned, the hybrid, high performance focusing systems are better than even what is in the D6 or the D850, and all three mfgrs - Sony Nikon and Canon have competing systems - and they are desirable over the DSLR - which, by comparison, is not as consistent and not as accurate due to the nature of phase detect AF systems.
If you are looking to compare cameras with differe... (show quote)


Gene, I have prints that I had put on Metal and Acrylic from my D500 and I had BayPhoto do 16 by 20 and 24 by 30 with no problems whatsoever. Now I do agree that the D500 will not be able to print much higher, but that is where I breakout my D5 or D850. The D5 is around the same megapixel when matched to my D500 and I can easily have prints done larger than the D500 as the D5 is Full-Frame and does have better Resolution than the D500. When I'm shooting on game days for The University of Michigan, I always suit up the big 3 with different lenses of course and I have all 3 Bodies suited on Monopods. This is what has been working for me for the past 6yrs.. I setup like this so I don't have to change lenses. I usually shoot the 2nd. and 3rd. quarters on Football games as I have to tend the bench during the games as I work for the Team and the athletic dept.. I also shoot Our Basketball games to as well as Baseball and Hockey. And yes it is hectic when we play our in State Rival MSU and when we play Ohio ST., I usually just work the bench and spend some time yelling for the offense to get where our Coordinators can setup plays that we can use against certain Defenses. Anyway, if you get time, let me know why you think that the D500 can't print the sizes that I was able to, plus I did use my new Z9 at our game with Purdue and what a Camera is all I can say.

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May 19, 2022 12:09:20   #
alfengael
 
Ha! This topic is pretty well beaten to a pulp, but I have to add my tuppence because just last week I bought a D5 (with less than 3K clicks) and have been shooting and comparing it to my other three cameras: the Z7, Z6 II and the D850. So far, what I can see from real world shooting of backyard wildlife in low light, in trees, and on the wing, is the D5 is superior to the others, not so much for the low-light aspect of noise, although the D5 does seem to be better (see image attached); they are all pretty close in that respect and the noise can be mitigated in post. What's more amazing is the ability of the D5 to grab focus almost instantly and hold that focus on distant subjects, with the two long lenses I've been shooting with (Nikon 500mm PF and Sigma 60-600mm S). Shooting a bird in a tree behind or through branches, the D850 is slow and hunts, the Z6 II fails and the bird is gone, and I don't even bother trying those same shots with the Z7.

The other unexpected beauty of the D5 is the incredible sharpness of the photos I've been getting with it. It really reminds me of the D500: the camera performs much better than the specs say it should. The D5 images are easily equal to the D850 especially when processed with DxO PureRAW 2 and Enhanced in Lightroom to double the resolution. But again, it's the D5's focusing and tracking ability that wins me over. The D850 is good, the D5 is better.

As for the FPS, I don't like blasting off 120 frames in 10 seconds and have to deal with hundreds of images to sort through and rate or delete—it's a waste of time. Most birds in flight aren't going to be around much longer than 15-20 frames, and static subjects, well what's the point of shooting 12 fps when something is barely moving?

All that said, I do have a Z9 on order and if it ever gets here I'll have a heck of time deciding which one of the other cameras to keep as backup, because the IQ differences between the Z7, Z6 II, D850 and D5 are not a criteria for making that decision. And I really don't need 5 great cameras.

In case anyone is wondering, the workflow I used on the attached images is this: Make exposure adjustments in Lightroom Develop, and Crop > Enhance in Lightroom w/o Super Resolution > Process in DxO PureRAW 2 (an amazing plugin/app) > Enhance again in Lightroom for Super Resolution > Edit in Photoshop for final little tweaks and reduce for Web using Steve Perry's PS Action for doing so.





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May 19, 2022 12:30:25   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
alfengael wrote:
Ha! This topic is pretty well beaten to a pulp, but I have to add my tuppence because just last week I bought a D5 (with less than 3K clicks) and have been shooting and comparing it to my other three cameras: the Z7, Z6 II and the D850. So far, what I can see from real world shooting of backyard wildlife in low light, in trees, and on the wing, is the D5 is superior to the others, not so much for the low-light aspect of noise, although the D5 does seem to be better (see image attached); they are all pretty close in that respect and the noise can be mitigated in post. What's more amazing is the ability of the D5 to grab focus almost instantly and hold that focus on distant subjects, with the two long lenses I've been shooting with (Nikon 500mm PF and Sigma 60-600mm S). Shooting a bird in a tree behind or through branches, the D850 is slow and hunts, the Z6 II fails and the bird is gone, and I don't even bother trying those same shots with the Z7.

The other unexpected beauty of the D5 is the incredible sharpness of the photos I've been getting with the it. It really reminds me of the D500: the camera performs much better than the specs say it should. The D5 images are easily equal to the D850 especially when processed with DxO PureRAW 2 and Enhanced in Lightroom to double the resolution. But again, it's the D5's focusing and tracking ability that wins me over. The D850 is good, the D5 is better.

As for the FPS, I don't like blasting off 120 frames in 10 seconds and have to deal with hundreds of images to sort through and rate or delete—it's a waste of time. Most birds in flight aren't going to be around much longer than 15-20 frames, and static subjects, well what's the point of shooting 12 fps when something is barely moving?

All that said, I do have a Z9 on order and if it ever gets here I'll have a heck of time deciding which one of the other cameras to keep as backup, because the IQ differences between the Z7, Z6 II, D850 and D5 are not a criteria for making that decision. And I really don't need 5 great cameras.

In case anyone is wondering, the workflow I used on the attached image is this: Make exposure adjustments in Lightroom Develop, and Crop > Enhance in Lightroom w/o Super Resolution > Process in DxO PureRAW 2 (an amazing plugin/app) > Enhance again in Lightroom for Super Resolution > Edit in Photoshop for final little tweaks and reduce for Web using Steve Perry's action for doing that.
Ha! This topic is pretty well beaten to a pulp, bu... (show quote)


Doesn’t surprise me at all. The D5 is performing so well in exactly the environment it was optimized for - low light, fast action. According to Photons to Photos, the D5 is almost a full stop better in low light/high ISO performance than the Z9, but the Z9 has almost 2 stops better DR. The D5 remains the FF low light king.

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May 19, 2022 12:54:49   #
alfengael
 
Yeah, currently I rely on the Z7 for landscapes and seascapes, whenever DR is needed. I think the Z9 will be more for that genre than for shots like the above, but I love playing with them all and seeing what they can do. I do think the D5 will be a keeper over the D850 once I have the Z9.

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May 19, 2022 14:02:12   #
In-lightened Loc: Kansas City
 
I miss my D5. And my D850. However for BIF, there is no comparison on keeper rate with mirrorless - especially the A1 from Sony. The Z9 will perform better than any of it's predecessors as well. When it's locked on, the images are sharp. Period. You now have tons of sharp images to choose the very best position of appendages. The noise issues that are greater than D5 are easily taken care of in DXO or Topaz AI.

However, The challenge out of mirrorless is it's propensity to not want to change focus if it has grabbed something further away. For this, you simply have a recall focus button set and it will grab what you are after. Or you can focus on the ground closer to yourself. This is an important concept to understand the differences between Mirrorless and DSLR technology. So one can say missed opportunities can be an issue if you aren't prepared. Despite this, I wouldn't go back to DSLR. Just need new habits while shooting.

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