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Hand held incident
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Oct 17, 2021 18:00:47   #
DLRogers Loc: NY Fingerlakes
 
AndyT wrote:
If I can get an answer that I can use, I'm not afraid to ask a dumb question.


One of my professors once told that the only dumb question is the one not asked.

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Oct 17, 2021 18:03:59   #
Miamark Loc: Florida
 
jamesl wrote:
-----------
I'm not using the gray card for an incident reading. I was suggesting using the xard as if it were the subject and take in incident reading in front of it just as you would with a person. Take a shot using the meter readings and check where the spike from the gray card falls on the histogram. Compare that with the results you get taking the reflected meter reading from the card with the cameras meter. Both meters should be giving you a correct reading for 18% gray. If they don't match then the two meters were calibrated to different standards. In that case you want to calibrate your incident meter to the camera so that either meter will give the same reading. An incident reading taken in fromt of the 18% gray card should give you the same settings as you would get taking a reflected reading from the card using the camera's built in meter.
----------- br I'm not using the gray card for an ... (show quote)

Then you are using the 18% grey card to get a reflected light reading to compare with an incident reading. The card has nothing to do with an incident reading.

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Oct 17, 2021 21:46:31   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
At my advanced age, whether or not my memory is working right or not seems to be variable but something I seem to recall about using handheld meters from the instruction manual of both my Minolta and Luna Pro meters, both of which have a 1 degree spot meter attachment for an alternative to incidence and reflective readings, is that if you want an incidence reading you aimed the dome toward the source of light (at the camera) and for a reflected reading you take the dome off and aim at the subject. I can lay my hands on my manuals fairly easily if needed and will humbly bow if mistaken. I mostly quit using my handheld meters after extensive comparison of reflective metering from my camera and reflective metering from my handheld, noting that there wasn't often an appreciable difference but I have several older cameras that do not have a meter in them as well as some with selenium cell meters that have quit working. I found that "Sunny 16" works a lot better with print film that has up 4 to 5 degrees of exposure latitude but not so well with slide film or digital where a reading needs to be more precise due to a lack of wiggle room.

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Oct 17, 2021 23:04:12   #
Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb
 
I'm not sure the way you use the meter has to to do with the meter. Holding a meter to the sky is not the way to use a spot meter. Meter use is a skill, and different meters work or react differant, is it a spot or does it have a dispenser over the reader end etc.

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Oct 18, 2021 00:56:44   #
Miamark Loc: Florida
 
gessman wrote:
At my advanced age, whether or not my memory is working right or not seems to be variable but something I seem to recall about using handheld meters from the instruction manual of both my Minolta and Luna Pro meters, both of which have a 1 degree spot meter attachment for an alternative to incidence and reflective readings, is that if you want an incidence reading you aimed the dome toward the source of light (at the camera) and for a reflected reading you take the dome off and aim at the subject. I can lay my hands on my manuals fairly easily if needed and will humbly bow if mistaken. I mostly quit using my handheld meters after extensive comparison of reflective metering from my camera and reflective metering from my handheld, noting that there wasn't often an appreciable difference but I have several older cameras that do not have a meter in them as well as some with selenium cell meters that have quit working. I found that "Sunny 16" works a lot better with print film that has up 4 to 5 degrees of exposure latitude but not so well with slide film or digital where a reading needs to be more precise due to a lack of wiggle room.
At my advanced age, whether or not my memory is wo... (show quote)

The camera is not the source of light unless you are using a flash mounted on the camera. You are correct, however, that an incident meter should be aimed at the camera, i.e., from the subject towards the camera with the dome attached. The dome will pick up the amount of light hitting the subject. Others have written that the dome should be pointed upward. That is not correct. I do a lot of street photography and it wouldbe, and still is, difficult to use an incident meter in those scenarios. I, too, found that the Sunny 16 rule was effective in the old days. As in camera meters became more sophisticated using multi-points to assess exposure-they became more accurate; however, in-camera meters are reflective meters. It is still more accurate to use an 18% grey card or point the camera to a surface that approximates 18% grey. If you take a tight portrait and meter off the face, you will not get a precise measurement as skin tones as either much lighter or darker than the 18% grey that reflective or in-camera maters are calibrated for.

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Oct 18, 2021 08:58:52   #
Miamark Loc: Florida
 
Picture Taker wrote:
I'm not sure the way you use the meter has to to do with the meter. Holding a meter to the sky is not the way to use a spot meter. Meter use is a skill, and different meters work or react differant, is it a spot or does it have a dispenser over the reader end etc.


A spot meter is not an incident meter. It is a reflective meter. The original question dealt with incident meters. For a spot meter you point the meter towards the subject. You still need a grey card or know how to compensate for the spot reading. If you use a spot meter it should be pointed at an area that approximates 18 percent grey unless you happen to be carrying a grey card.

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Oct 18, 2021 11:12:39   #
AndyT Loc: Hampstead, New Hampshire
 
Miamark wrote:
The manual for this meter expressly states in section 2.2 to point the meter from the subject towards the camera. That way you will be able to determine how much light is falling on the subject. The dome will provide the reading incidence of the light from the sky and other areas. If you point the meter to the sky or up, you will not get a correct reading and will mostly overexpose the shot. Since many meters can measure can measure flash exposure you still want to point the meter towards the camera as well and the dome will accommodate the correct exposure for the direction that the light is coming from. You do not point the flash function towards the flash unless the flash is on the camera.
The manual for this meter expressly states in sect... (show quote)


Thanks for replying. That's what I was leaning to.

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Oct 18, 2021 11:14:07   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
I have no accurate statistics, however, I would make an educated guess that what with the advanced and sophisticated metering systems in today's digital cameras, the majority of photographers, including serious workers and professionals are not using or depending on handheld exposure meters. There are, however, a significant minority of photographers, including myself, who still find them particularly useful, while not excluding their cameras' internal systems, for many situations and specific applications. I have come to the obvious conclusion, after many years of experience in calculating all kinds of exposure scenarios, that there is not one kind of meter, metering mode (incident, reflected, or spot metering, on one metering setting in your cameras' menu (spot, average, matrix. etc.) that can address all situations and scenarios or kinds of work at hand. Most importantly, even with the best and most versatile meter or camera in hand, the photographer's metering technique is the most essential component of attaining the correct and most accurate exposure.

Whether you are using your cameras' metering systems or a handheld exposure meter in an incident, reflected, or spot mode, the key to accurate or effective readings is knowing where and how to probe. Of course, there is the prescribed method, with the incident or light meters, to place the meter at the subject and point the lig collect dome at the camera. Theoretically, the come will collet and defuse or miss the light so that is still the subject for all the directions they came can see and an acceptable exposure should result. If, however, the photographer wishes to further analyze the scent or subject, set up lighting ratios in studios environments, measure the effectiveness of a reflector fill with natural or ambient light, measure the effect of a light striking the subject fom a more extreme angle of incidence, the incident light meter can also be used to make more isolated readings by the use of an interchangeable flat light receptor, a recessed dome, or simply by shading one or more aspects of the dome.

Some incident light metes, mostly older models. had an accessory grid that to would replace the dome and thereby simulate a perfect light meter. Other older mode reflects light meters had an accessory dome or inserts that would convert it for incident light readings. Those older meters were usually analog types with calculator dials that had compensatory markings for these conversions.

Regardless of the meter type you use, YOU are the operator and YOU must learn how to use it effectively. It is merely a light measuring instrument and as much as the manufactures and retailers like to call cameras and meters "intelligent"- they use that little italicized ("I") in the nameplate- your meter has no eyes and no brain. A stethoscope is an instrument that your doctor uses but he or she can't listen to your heart or lungs by placing the stethoscope on your knee. And, if you were not a health professional, you would not know what specific sounds to listen for even if you placed the instrument properly. The doctor would not use a sphygmomanometer to listen to your heart- that tool is for blood pressure measurement. Learn where and how to measure light and use the right meter or metering mode that is appropriate for the job at hand!


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Oct 18, 2021 11:19:11   #
AndyT Loc: Hampstead, New Hampshire
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I have no accurate statistics, however, I would make an educated guess that what with the advanced and sophisticated metering systems in today's digital cameras, the majority of photographers, including serious workers and professionals are not using or depending on handheld exposure meters. There are, however, a significant minority of photographers, including myself, who still find them particularly useful. while not excluding their cameras' internal systems, for many situations and specific applications. I have come to the obvious conclusion, after many years of expereince in calculating all kinds of exposure scenarios, that there is not one kind of meter, metering mode (incident, reflected, or spot metering, on one metering setting in your cameras' menu (spot, average, matrix. etc.) that can address all situations and scenarios or kinds of work at hand. Most importantly, even with the best and most versatile meter or camera in hand, the photographer's metering technique is the most essential component of attaining the correct and most accurate exposure.

Whether you are using your cameras' metering systems or a handheld exposure meter in an incident, reflected, or spot mode, the key to accurate or effective readings is knowing where and how to probe. Of course, there is the prescribed method, with the incident or light meters, to place the meter at the subject and point the lig collect dome at the camera. Theoretically, the come will collet and defuse or miss the light so that is still the subject for all the directions they came can see and an acceptable exposure should result. If, however, the photographer wishes to further analyze the scent or subject, set up lighting ratios in studios environments, measure the effectiveness of a reflector fill with natural or ambient light, measure the effect of a light sstrikomgthe subject for a more extreme angle of incidence, the incident light meter can also be used to make more isolated readings by the use of an interchangeable flat light receptor, a recessed dome, or simply by shading one or more aspects of the dome.

Some incident light metes, mostly older models. had an accessory grid that to would replace the dome and thereby simulate a perfect light meter. Other older mode reflects light meters had an accessory dome or inserts that would convert it for incident light readings. Those older meters were usually analog types with calculator dials that had compensatory markings for these conversions.

Regardless of the meter type you use, YOU are the operator and YOU must learn how to use it effectively. It is merely a light measuring instrument and as much as the manufactures and retailers like to call cameras and meters "intelligent"- they use that little italicized ("I") in the nameplate- your meter has no eyes and no brain. A stethoscope is an instrument that your doctor uses but he or she can't listen to your heart or lungs by placing the stethoscope on your knee. And, if you were not a health professional, you would not know what specific sounds to listen for even if you placed the instrument properly. The doctor would not use a sphygmomanometer to listen to your heart- that tool is for blood pressure measurement. Learn where and how to measure light and use the right meter or metering mode that is appropriate for the job at hand!

I have no accurate statistics, however, I would m... (show quote)


Got it. Thank you

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Oct 18, 2021 11:56:52   #
Miamark Loc: Florida
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I have no accurate statistics, however, I would make an educated guess that what with the advanced and sophisticated metering systems in today's digital cameras, the majority of photographers, including serious workers and professionals are not using or depending on handheld exposure meters. There are, however, a significant minority of photographers, including myself, who still find them particularly useful, while not excluding their cameras' internal systems, for many situations and specific applications. I have come to the obvious conclusion, after many years of experience in calculating all kinds of exposure scenarios, that there is not one kind of meter, metering mode (incident, reflected, or spot metering, on one metering setting in your cameras' menu (spot, average, matrix. etc.) that can address all situations and scenarios or kinds of work at hand. Most importantly, even with the best and most versatile meter or camera in hand, the photographer's metering technique is the most essential component of attaining the correct and most accurate exposure.

Whether you are using your cameras' metering systems or a handheld exposure meter in an incident, reflected, or spot mode, the key to accurate or effective readings is knowing where and how to probe. Of course, there is the prescribed method, with the incident or light meters, to place the meter at the subject and point the lig collect dome at the camera. Theoretically, the come will collet and defuse or miss the light so that is still the subject for all the directions they came can see and an acceptable exposure should result. If, however, the photographer wishes to further analyze the scent or subject, set up lighting ratios in studios environments, measure the effectiveness of a reflector fill with natural or ambient light, measure the effect of a light striking the subject fom a more extreme angle of incidence, the incident light meter can also be used to make more isolated readings by the use of an interchangeable flat light receptor, a recessed dome, or simply by shading one or more aspects of the dome.

Some incident light metes, mostly older models. had an accessory grid that to would replace the dome and thereby simulate a perfect light meter. Other older mode reflects light meters had an accessory dome or inserts that would convert it for incident light readings. Those older meters were usually analog types with calculator dials that had compensatory markings for these conversions.

Regardless of the meter type you use, YOU are the operator and YOU must learn how to use it effectively. It is merely a light measuring instrument and as much as the manufactures and retailers like to call cameras and meters "intelligent"- they use that little italicized ("I") in the nameplate- your meter has no eyes and no brain. A stethoscope is an instrument that your doctor uses but he or she can't listen to your heart or lungs by placing the stethoscope on your knee. And, if you were not a health professional, you would not know what specific sounds to listen for even if you placed the instrument properly. The doctor would not use a sphygmomanometer to listen to your heart- that tool is for blood pressure measurement. Learn where and how to measure light and use the right meter or metering mode that is appropriate for the job at hand!
Excellent thoughts. I do think that a hand held meter still is an excellent teaching tool but I suspect that most photographers use in camera meters with multi-section capability. Further, most cameras allow exposure bracketing as well and it is relatively easy to compensate for exposure errors in various programs. I wonder how many folks really think about different metering modes or grey cards these days.
I have no accurate statistics, however, I would m... (show quote)

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Oct 18, 2021 13:09:48   #
User ID
 
imagemeister wrote:
I would swear, that in all my experience, I recall the idea of pointing the incident receptor towards the main light source ! ? - which is what I did. This idea seems to fulfill the whole concept of "incidence" ........
.


You do that for balancing, or setting ratios, with multiple sources. Then you aim it back at the camera to determine exposure. The difference tends to be slight, unless you are using extreme lighting effects. Using extreme effects, “proper” exposure tends to be a very subjective call anywho.

Actually, exposure determination is generally subjective. There is always more than one way to skin a grape !

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Oct 18, 2021 14:19:01   #
BebuLamar
 
User ID wrote:
You do that for balancing, or setting ratios, with multiple sources. Then you aim it back at the camera to determine exposure. The difference tends to be slight, unless you are using extreme lighting effects. Using extreme effects, “proper” exposure tends to be a very subjective call anywho.

Actually, exposure determination is generally subjective. There is always more than one way to skin a grape !


But when you do that for lighting ratio you should use the flat diffuser instead of the dome. Or retract the dome to simulate the flat diffuser in the case of the Sekonic.

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Oct 18, 2021 14:55:52   #
User ID
 
BebuLamar wrote:
But when you do that for lighting ratio you should use the flat diffuser instead of the dome. Or retract the dome to simulate the flat diffuser in the case of the Sekonic.


Yes you really should. But then you’re responsible for the angle at which you hold it. Plus, typically, the dome is all you’ve got. This is all just entertainment anywho. There’s no actual use for absurd metering efforts in digital photography. It’s all theatre and the handheld meter is just a stage prop. It’s fun discussing how to use it.

My new Z6 won’t even show any meter reading with Leica lenses, so I have no meter. This is no hardship for using the camera, but it means I’m left out of any discussions about metering modes and patterns and exposure comped settings cuz I have no meter. So sad :-(

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Oct 18, 2021 18:15:17   #
jamesl Loc: Pennsylvania
 
Miamark wrote:
Then you are using the 18% grey card to get a reflected light reading to compare with an incident reading. The card has nothing to do with an incident reading.


-------------
Exactly, the gray card is simply the subject you are photographing. After taking the shot, you are simply zooming in of the card in the picture and checking the location of the spike in the histogram. If the spike is in the center, the exposure is correct. If it is not in the center, you need to calibrate the meter to the camera, so they will agree in future shots.

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Oct 18, 2021 22:15:40   #
dbrugger25 Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
There are light meter apps for smartphones. Are any of them any good? Are they accurate? I have an iPhone 13 Pro with two light meter apps. One is called PhotoLight & Exposure Meter. The other is Pocket Light Meter. Both are very simple apps that measure reflcted light.

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