Covid Vaccine Mandates verses Patriotism? (Page 11): If local jurisdictions passed a law that mandated the vaccine I would have no issues. Those doing so are answerable to the voters.

BboH Loc: s of 2/21, Ellicott City, MD

If local jurisdictions passed a law that mandated the vaccine I would have no issues. Those doing so are answerable to the voters.
My issue is that Biden and all "lesser" bodies issuing mandates is illegal and by accepting the mandate we are laying the infrastructure leading to a dictator of some sort - That's what Mr. Sanders and all in his camp want.

Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV

BboH wrote:

If local jurisdictions passed a law that mandated the vaccine I would have no issues. Those doing so are answerable to the voters.
My issue is that Biden and all "lesser" bodies issuing mandates is illegal and by accepting the mandate we are laying the infrastructure leading to a dictator of some sort - That's what Mr. Sanders and all in his camp want.

Except the mandates are illegal from whatever source.

Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV

btbg wrote:

For the greater good we need to stand up for perso... (show quote)

Absolutely!

Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV

btbg wrote:

We have overreported the seriousness of the diseas... (show quote)

btbg

National Park wrote:

Your post is both inaccurate and misleading. Masks do help to stop the spread of the virus. It is not 100% protection, but there is little question that masks work--some more than others. I can't believe that some people are such snowflakes that they won't wear a mask.

Regarding the Lewis Hospital situation, the articles I read on the Lewis Hospital situation is that 6 "employees" of the maternity ward resigned rather than get vaccinated; nowhere have I specifically read that these employees were "nurses." Lewis County is a rural New York County which has recently had the highest average percentage of positive test results of any county in New York. Although I have been unable to confirm this, it likely that this rural, Republican county has one of the lower vaccination rates in the State. Lower vaccination rates like what is found in this County is the very reason that vaccination requirements are needed for hospitals. Staff vaccinations are needed to protect staff as well as patients. By the way, 3/4's of the employees in this hospital ARE vaccinated; they apparently believe that the vaccination is a safe, effective way to protect yourself and others against covid. How a person can work in the health care field and refuse to get vaccinated is beyond me.

Regarding Israel, its vaccination rate is around 80%, not 100% as you claim, and the effectiveness of the vaccine wanes over time, especially with respect to new variants like the delta variant. Nowhere has Israel said that the vaccination isn't effective. It's reaction to the surge is to double-down on vaccinations and is administering booster shots.

The vaccination gives protection, but it is not 100% protection. It reduces the chance that you will catch covid and become seriously ill it you do catch it. Not being vaccinated increases the chance that you will catch covid and become seriously ill or die if you do catch it. Not being vaccinated increases the chance that you will catch covid and pass it on to others--including breakthrough cases of the vaccinated Not being vaccinated also increases the chance that new variants will be created that are more resistant to the vaccine. Your claim that the unvaccinated are doing nothing to harm the vaccinated is therefore simply wrong. And then there is the economic harm caused by the continuation of the pandemic...

Finally, I notice that your post fails to mention that an increasing number of hospitals have been forced to close their Intensive Care Units to new patients because their ICUs are overflowing with covid patients, nearly all of whom are unvaccinated. Tell a vaccinated person who is turned away from an ICU because it is filled with unvaccinated covid patients that it doesn't matter to them that people aren't getting vaccinated.

Your post is both inaccurate and misleading. Mas... (show quote)

Read the recent article in the Atlantic. It would appear that 48 percent of the current hospitalized covid patients are either hospitalized because of something other than covid and have just happened to test positive for covid, or have covid with other comorbidities, so have been hospitalized for precautionary reasons, but are not seriously ill.

Now, let's look at the Lewis hospital situation. Approximately 25 percent of the staff are unvaccinated. That is pretty much the same as the nation as a whole. That clearly means that even among health care professionals there is not 100 percent agreement that everyone should be vaccinated.

And, there is still the question of what is going on with young women and changes in their menstrual cycle. The NIH has given six grants to study the situation. Even the Pfiser vaccine, which has been approved has not had the extensive study that has been given to other vaccines prior to approval. No one knows what if any long term impacts the virus may turn out to have. So, why would any young woman risk getting the vaccine when they are very low risk of getting a serious case of covid? It makes no sense to require a healthy person who is low risk to take a vaccine when they don't know if it is going to cause them a long term problem or not. In addition there is a small group of individuals who has serious side effects from the vaccine. If you were low risk of getting serious illness why would you take a chance on the side effects. The chance of a 20 year old in good health getting serious health problems from the vaccine are at least as high as of that same individual getting serious complications from the virus. So, why should they get vaccinated.

In addition, you acknowledge that the vaccine is not 100 percent effective. That means that even if we vaccinate 100 percent of individuals in the U.S. the virus is still going to spread. It would probably lower fatalities, but why should the vaccinated care about what someone else does. The unvaccinated individual is not endangering you.

As far as masks, there is no clear evidence that masks do anything. The only study that even suggests they do was done in Bangladesh. That study had just 42 percent compliance in the areas where they promoted mask use. Those areas did better than the areas where they did not promote mask use. But, that study is seriously flawed because they didn't just promote mask use. They also promoted social distancing, so they have no idea which of those things actually caused the lower case rate. I would contend that it was the social distancing that made a difference, because they noted in their study that after educating the people in those areas the markets were way less crowded than in the other areas. That means that they removed at least one of the sources of protection.

Meanwhile, there are multiple studies that indicate that masks don't work. The first is from Vietnam in 2015 and shows cloth masks to be pretty much useless. The second is from Denmark in 2020 and shows no statistical difference between masked and unmasked individuals as far as infection rate. And the third was done by the Marines with incoming recruits at Paris Island, and the volunteer group, which wore masks at all times had a slightly greater infection rate than those who did not volunteer.

There is just no clear evidence that masks work. And, you have the following quote from Fauci, who admits that they don't work in an email to a friend. "The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out [the] virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in [keeping] out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you.” Note, he admits that at best it might provide some slight benefit.

In addition, we know that Fauci lied about the NIH funding gain of function research in China. So, why would we believe anything else that he says? And, he was caught maskless at a major league baseball game the same week that he railed against individuals attending college football games maskless. You are accepting the word of a bunch of hypocrites and liars when it comes to making your health care decisions. Why should we listen to what they have to say when they don't follow their own recommendations?

Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV

berchman wrote:

Do you have a Border Collie to herd your flock of sheeple?

No, but I need one. Actually I could use a pack of Doberman Pinschers!

pendennis

btbg wrote:

Read the recent article in the Atlantic. It would appear that 48 percent of the current hospitalized covid patients are either hospitalized because of something other than covid and have just happened to test positive for covid, or have covid with other comorbidities, so have been hospitalized for precautionary reasons, but are not seriously ill.

Now, let's look at the Lewis hospital situation. Approximately 25 percent of the staff are unvaccinated. That is pretty much the same as the nation as a whole. That clearly means that even among health care professionals there is not 100 percent agreement that everyone should be vaccinated.

And, there is still the question of what is going on with young women and changes in their menstrual cycle. The NIH has given six grants to study the situation. Even the Pfiser vaccine, which has been approved has not had the extensive study that has been given to other vaccines prior to approval. No one knows what if any long term impacts the virus may turn out to have. So, why would any young woman risk getting the vaccine when they are very low risk of getting a serious case of covid? It makes no sense to require a healthy person who is low risk to take a vaccine when they don't know if it is going to cause them a long term problem or not. In addition there is a small group of individuals who has serious side effects from the vaccine. If you were low risk of getting serious illness why would you take a chance on the side effects. The chance of a 20 year old in good health getting serious health problems from the vaccine are at least as high as of that same individual getting serious complications from the virus. So, why should they get vaccinated.

In addition, you acknowledge that the vaccine is not 100 percent effective. That means that even if we vaccinate 100 percent of individuals in the U.S. the virus is still going to spread. It would probably lower fatalities, but why should the vaccinated care about what someone else does. The unvaccinated individual is not endangering you.

As far as masks, there is no clear evidence that masks do anything. The only study that even suggests they do was done in Bangladesh. That study had just 42 percent compliance in the areas where they promoted mask use. Those areas did better than the areas where they did not promote mask use. But, that study is seriously flawed because they didn't just promote mask use. They also promoted social distancing, so they have no idea which of those things actually caused the lower case rate. I would contend that it was the social distancing that made a difference, because they noted in their study that after educating the people in those areas the markets were way less crowded than in the other areas. That means that they removed at least one of the sources of protection.

Meanwhile, there are multiple studies that indicate that masks don't work. The first is from Vietnam in 2015 and shows cloth masks to be pretty much useless. The second is from Denmark in 2020 and shows no statistical difference between masked and unmasked individuals as far as infection rate. And the third was done by the Marines with incoming recruits at Paris Island, and the volunteer group, which wore masks at all times had a slightly greater infection rate than those who did not volunteer.

There is just no clear evidence that masks work. And, you have the following quote from Fauci, who admits that they don't work in an email to a friend. "The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out [the] virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in [keeping] out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you.” Note, he admits that at best it might provide some slight benefit.

In addition, we know that Fauci lied about the NIH funding gain of function research in China. So, why would we believe anything else that he says? And, he was caught maskless at a major league baseball game the same week that he railed against individuals attending college football games maskless. You are accepting the word of a bunch of hypocrites and liars when it comes to making your health care decisions. Why should we listen to what they have to say when they don't follow their own recommendations?

Read the recent article in the Atlantic. It would ... (show quote)

Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV

berchman wrote:

I hear a Trumper sheep going baa baa.

Not a Trumper specifically. But I admire anyone who could do the job PRESIDENT Trump did with back biting and histrionics every step of the way every second of every day of his very successful administration. He was the best thing to happen in American Politics in a generation! And guess what, he will be back and he will do the same again. Assuming there is something to come back to after three more years of Uncle Joe and cronies.

berchman Loc: South Central PA

cwp3420 wrote:

Awww, how precious. Berchman has learned a new word. He still doesn’t know what it means, but hey, let’s use it to death.

I know that you, as a trumper sheeple are suffering from scrapie.

btbg

David Martin wrote:

Exactly. For example: br br In the U.S. the highe... (show quote)

I'm only going to bother to address the last statement that you have made. What difference does it make that the rate of positive tests in children went up as vaccination rates went down. First, that will ultimately help with herd immunity. Second, there is no evidence that the higher infection rate led to higher serious complications or higher death rates. People getting covid is not a problem. People getting covid and having serious complications or death is the problem.

The Barrington Protocols addressed that without other draconian measures. We just chose to ignore what all those scientists said. Basically they said protect the most vulnerable, and let everyone else live. But, instead we are trying to control those who don't need or want protection and doing little or nothing to protect those who are most vulnerable.

Let's look at the real reason we have such a high death rate. First we have a series of governors led by Cuomo who put infected individuals back into nursing homes causing a huge percentage of the early deaths. Then we have failed to do antibody tests to see what percentage of the population has already had the virus, thus making the survival rate look lower than it actually is. Third, we have listed anyone who died with covid as a covid death rather than only those who died from covid inflating the mortality rate.

If you look at the total deaths in 2020 they were just slightly more than the total deaths in 2019, which were just slightly higher than the total deaths in 2018. Instead of focusing on covid we should be focusing on total deaths as compared to a normal year, because that has only been a small change from normal.

And, finally, hospitals frequently have limited ICU space, and a shortage of beds. That was true prior to covid and it is still true. If they don't have about 92 percent capacity they lose money, so they design hospitals to be nearly at capacity all the time. I had my gal bladder removed in 2017 because of what the doctor called the worst gal stones he has ever seen. I had to wait a week for the surgery and go to a different hospital than I wanted to because there were no beds available in the entire three county area. They would not perform the surgery unless there was a bed available even though I did not stay overnight. Hospitals being full is neither a new phenomenon nor a reason for great concern.

redlegfrog

btbg wrote:

Read the recent article in the Atlantic. It would appear that 48 percent of the current hospitalized covid patients are either hospitalized because of something other than covid and have just happened to test positive for covid, or have covid with other comorbidities, so have been hospitalized for precautionary reasons, but are not seriously ill.

Now, let's look at the Lewis hospital situation. Approximately 25 percent of the staff are unvaccinated. That is pretty much the same as the nation as a whole. That clearly means that even among health care professionals there is not 100 percent agreement that everyone should be vaccinated.

And, there is still the question of what is going on with young women and changes in their menstrual cycle. The NIH has given six grants to study the situation. Even the Pfiser vaccine, which has been approved has not had the extensive study that has been given to other vaccines prior to approval. No one knows what if any long term impacts the virus may turn out to have. So, why would any young woman risk getting the vaccine when they are very low risk of getting a serious case of covid? It makes no sense to require a healthy person who is low risk to take a vaccine when they don't know if it is going to cause them a long term problem or not. In addition there is a small group of individuals who has serious side effects from the vaccine. If you were low risk of getting serious illness why would you take a chance on the side effects. The chance of a 20 year old in good health getting serious health problems from the vaccine are at least as high as of that same individual getting serious complications from the virus. So, why should they get vaccinated.

In addition, you acknowledge that the vaccine is not 100 percent effective. That means that even if we vaccinate 100 percent of individuals in the U.S. the virus is still going to spread. It would probably lower fatalities, but why should the vaccinated care about what someone else does. The unvaccinated individual is not endangering you.

As far as masks, there is no clear evidence that masks do anything. The only study that even suggests they do was done in Bangladesh. That study had just 42 percent compliance in the areas where they promoted mask use. Those areas did better than the areas where they did not promote mask use. But, that study is seriously flawed because they didn't just promote mask use. They also promoted social distancing, so they have no idea which of those things actually caused the lower case rate. I would contend that it was the social distancing that made a difference, because they noted in their study that after educating the people in those areas the markets were way less crowded than in the other areas. That means that they removed at least one of the sources of protection.

Meanwhile, there are multiple studies that indicate that masks don't work. The first is from Vietnam in 2015 and shows cloth masks to be pretty much useless. The second is from Denmark in 2020 and shows no statistical difference between masked and unmasked individuals as far as infection rate. And the third was done by the Marines with incoming recruits at Paris Island, and the volunteer group, which wore masks at all times had a slightly greater infection rate than those who did not volunteer.

There is just no clear evidence that masks work. And, you have the following quote from Fauci, who admits that they don't work in an email to a friend. "The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out [the] virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in [keeping] out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you.” Note, he admits that at best it might provide some slight benefit.

In addition, we know that Fauci lied about the NIH funding gain of function research in China. So, why would we believe anything else that he says? And, he was caught maskless at a major league baseball game the same week that he railed against individuals attending college football games maskless. You are accepting the word of a bunch of hypocrites and liars when it comes to making your health care decisions. Why should we listen to what they have to say when they don't follow their own recommendations?

Read the recent article in the Atlantic. It would ... (show quote)

I think that about covers it!
Thanks

Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV

btbg wrote:

Read the recent article in the Atlantic. It would appear that 48 percent of the current hospitalized covid patients are either hospitalized because of something other than covid and have just happened to test positive for covid, or have covid with other comorbidities, so have been hospitalized for precautionary reasons, but are not seriously ill.

Now, let's look at the Lewis hospital situation. Approximately 25 percent of the staff are unvaccinated. That is pretty much the same as the nation as a whole. That clearly means that even among health care professionals there is not 100 percent agreement that everyone should be vaccinated.

And, there is still the question of what is going on with young women and changes in their menstrual cycle. The NIH has given six grants to study the situation. Even the Pfiser vaccine, which has been approved has not had the extensive study that has been given to other vaccines prior to approval. No one knows what if any long term impacts the virus may turn out to have. So, why would any young woman risk getting the vaccine when they are very low risk of getting a serious case of covid? It makes no sense to require a healthy person who is low risk to take a vaccine when they don't know if it is going to cause them a long term problem or not. In addition there is a small group of individuals who has serious side effects from the vaccine. If you were low risk of getting serious illness why would you take a chance on the side effects. The chance of a 20 year old in good health getting serious health problems from the vaccine are at least as high as of that same individual getting serious complications from the virus. So, why should they get vaccinated.

In addition, you acknowledge that the vaccine is not 100 percent effective. That means that even if we vaccinate 100 percent of individuals in the U.S. the virus is still going to spread. It would probably lower fatalities, but why should the vaccinated care about what someone else does. The unvaccinated individual is not endangering you.

As far as masks, there is no clear evidence that masks do anything. The only study that even suggests they do was done in Bangladesh. That study had just 42 percent compliance in the areas where they promoted mask use. Those areas did better than the areas where they did not promote mask use. But, that study is seriously flawed because they didn't just promote mask use. They also promoted social distancing, so they have no idea which of those things actually caused the lower case rate. I would contend that it was the social distancing that made a difference, because they noted in their study that after educating the people in those areas the markets were way less crowded than in the other areas. That means that they removed at least one of the sources of protection.

Meanwhile, there are multiple studies that indicate that masks don't work. The first is from Vietnam in 2015 and shows cloth masks to be pretty much useless. The second is from Denmark in 2020 and shows no statistical difference between masked and unmasked individuals as far as infection rate. And the third was done by the Marines with incoming recruits at Paris Island, and the volunteer group, which wore masks at all times had a slightly greater infection rate than those who did not volunteer.

There is just no clear evidence that masks work. And, you have the following quote from Fauci, who admits that they don't work in an email to a friend. "The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out [the] virus, which is small enough to pass through the material. It might, however, provide some slight benefit in [keeping] out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you.” Note, he admits that at best it might provide some slight benefit.

In addition, we know that Fauci lied about the NIH funding gain of function research in China. So, why would we believe anything else that he says? And, he was caught maskless at a major league baseball game the same week that he railed against individuals attending college football games maskless. You are accepting the word of a bunch of hypocrites and liars when it comes to making your health care decisions. Why should we listen to what they have to say when they don't follow their own recommendations?

Read the recent article in the Atlantic. It would ... (show quote)

redlegfrog

btbg wrote:

I'm only going to bother to address the last statement that you have made. What difference does it make that the rate of positive tests in children went up as vaccination rates went down. First, that will ultimately help with herd immunity. Second, there is no evidence that the higher infection rate led to higher serious complications or higher death rates. People getting covid is not a problem. People getting covid and having serious complications or death is the problem.

The Barrington Protocols addressed that without other draconian measures. We just chose to ignore what all those scientists said. Basically they said protect the most vulnerable, and let everyone else live. But, instead we are trying to control those who don't need or want protection and doing little or nothing to protect those who are most vulnerable.

Let's look at the real reason we have such a high death rate. First we have a series of governors led by Cuomo who put infected individuals back into nursing homes causing a huge percentage of the early deaths. Then we have failed to do antibody tests to see what percentage of the population has already had the virus, thus making the survival rate look lower than it actually is. Third, we have listed anyone who died with covid as a covid death rather than only those who died from covid inflating the mortality rate.

If you look at the total deaths in 2020 they were just slightly more than the total deaths in 2019, which were just slightly higher than the total deaths in 2018. Instead of focusing on covid we should be focusing on total deaths as compared to a normal year, because that has only been a small change from normal.

And, finally, hospitals frequently have limited ICU space, and a shortage of beds. That was true prior to covid and it is still true. If they don't have about 92 percent capacity they lose money, so they design hospitals to be nearly at capacity all the time. I had my gal bladder removed in 2017 because of what the doctor called the worst gal stones he has ever seen. I had to wait a week for the surgery and go to a different hospital than I wanted to because there were no beds available in the entire three county area. They would not perform the surgery unless there was a bed available even though I did not stay overnight. Hospitals being full is neither a new phenomenon nor a reason for great concern.

I'm only going to bother to address the last state... (show quote)

Well said! I think we need to sign you up for a speaking tour!

craneman

Mr. Berchman, I have been reading these posts with interest. Both sides put forth a good arguement. Some are better than others, but all bring something to the table, except for you. You bringing the Trump card into the mix makes you an embarrassment to the entire conversation. Now go ahead and turn your wrath on me. Let's find out how small you can be.

thom w Loc: San Jose, CA

btbg wrote:

I'm only going to bother to address the last statement that you have made. What difference does it make that the rate of positive tests in children went up as vaccination rates went down. First, that will ultimately help with herd immunity. Second, there is no evidence that the higher infection rate led to higher serious complications or higher death rates. People getting covid is not a problem. People getting covid and having serious complications or death is the problem.

The Barrington Protocols addressed that without other draconian measures. We just chose to ignore what all those scientists said. Basically they said protect the most vulnerable, and let everyone else live. But, instead we are trying to control those who don't need or want protection and doing little or nothing to protect those who are most vulnerable.

Let's look at the real reason we have such a high death rate. First we have a series of governors led by Cuomo who put infected individuals back into nursing homes causing a huge percentage of the early deaths. Then we have failed to do antibody tests to see what percentage of the population has already had the virus, thus making the survival rate look lower than it actually is. Third, we have listed anyone who died with covid as a covid death rather than only those who died from covid inflating the mortality rate.

If you look at the total deaths in 2020 they were just slightly more than the total deaths in 2019, which were just slightly higher than the total deaths in 2018. Instead of focusing on covid we should be focusing on total deaths as compared to a normal year, because that has only been a small change from normal.

And, finally, hospitals frequently have limited ICU space, and a shortage of beds. That was true prior to covid and it is still true. If they don't have about 92 percent capacity they lose money, so they design hospitals to be nearly at capacity all the time. I had my gal bladder removed in 2017 because of what the doctor called the worst gal stones he has ever seen. I had to wait a week for the surgery and go to a different hospital than I wanted to because there were no beds available in the entire three county area. They would not perform the surgery unless there was a bed available even though I did not stay overnight. Hospitals being full is neither a new phenomenon nor a reason for great concern.

I'm only going to bother to address the last state... (show quote)

When a hospital's LOX system needs totally revamped because of capacity, that is not routine.