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Safety of Traveling Abroad (Middle East) during Pandemic
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Aug 10, 2021 13:59:13   #
BigOldArt Loc: Seminole, FL
 
You're welcome. Stay safe.

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Aug 10, 2021 14:11:46   #
David Martin Loc: Cary, NC
 
Mario22 wrote:
However, as of today less than 1% of the population of Egypt and Jordan have been vaccinated against Covid 19.

You might also wish to consider the implication of the vaccines used in Egypt: initially Sinopharm vaccine (Chinese), to which over time were added the Astra-Zeneca vaccine (from UK), Sinovac (also Chinese, which is now actually being manufactured in Egypt from ingredients supplied by China) and Sputnik (Russian, of course). And just yesterday Egypt received its first shipment of the J&J vaccine. At least for the original variants of Covid, none of these had the same efficacy as Pfizer or Moderna vaccines. Jordan initially used Sinopharm and Pfizer.

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Aug 10, 2021 16:10:48   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
How so?: "bigotry."

I speak my mind about the dangerous conditions in the Middle East.

FYI: I also say what I think.

The OP did mention a visit to the Middle East. A caution seemed in order given the rampant religious violence there.

See more here: https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx
Gene51 wrote:
This is not the place to express your bigotry. Stick to the topic. No one asked you for your religious views.

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Aug 11, 2021 09:18:12   #
Mario22 Loc: Albany, NY
 
Ratelliott wrote:
I was in Egypt and Jordan in Nov, 2019, shortly before COVID. Most of the attractions and sites that I assume you will visit and photograph are outdoors. This reduces your risk. On the other hand, it was crowded. I no idea what the crowds are like now. I would check with the tour group to see what the crowds are like these days. Most tour companies are sensitive to travelers concerns and should be willing to discuss the steps the are taking to minimize your risk. If not, that would be a red flag for me.
I was in Egypt and Jordan in Nov, 2019, shortly be... (show quote)


They say that sites are less crowded and that they are creating a bubble of protection for us. So we ride in private air conditioned SUVs and have a tour boat cruise on the Nile just to ourselves. That’s nice, but there is no way to provide a real bubble of protection when you have no control over food preparation, Covid level sanitary cleaning, vaccination status of your drivers, cooks, boat staff, etc. In a country with less than 1% vaccinated, and those mainly with the ineffective Chinese vaccines, I can’t imagine not being exposed daily to the virus. Plus the tour group has no requirement that tour members be vaccinated. I have to room with someone, person still unknown to me, and they might not be vaccinated or have had and recovered from Covid. With the new, more contagious variant I have tons of concerns about the safety of this trip.

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Aug 11, 2021 10:56:28   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
Protect yourself. Do not endanger yourself. Stay away.
Mario22 wrote:
They say that sites are less crowded and that they are creating a bubble of protection for us. So we ride in private air conditioned SUVs and have a tour boat cruise on the Nile just to ourselves. That’s nice, but there is no way to provide a real bubble of protection when you have no control over food preparation, Covid level sanitary cleaning, vaccination status of your drivers, cooks, boat staff, etc. In a country with less than 1% vaccinated, and those mainly with the ineffective Chinese vaccines, I can’t imagine not being exposed daily to the virus. Plus the tour group has no requirement that tour members be vaccinated. I have to room with someone, person still unknown to me, and they might not be vaccinated or have had and recovered from Covid. With the new, more contagious variant I have tons of concerns about the safety of this trip.
They say that sites are less crowded and that they... (show quote)

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Aug 11, 2021 10:57:52   #
2th Loc: Tehran
 
nice advice !

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Aug 11, 2021 12:10:49   #
David Martin Loc: Cary, NC
 
Mario22 wrote:
They say that sites are less crowded and that they are creating a bubble of protection for us. So we ride in private air conditioned SUVs and have a tour boat cruise on the Nile just to ourselves. That’s nice, but there is no way to provide a real bubble of protection when you have no control over food preparation, Covid level sanitary cleaning, vaccination status of your drivers, cooks, boat staff, etc. In a country with less than 1% vaccinated, and those mainly with the ineffective Chinese vaccines, I can’t imagine not being exposed daily to the virus. Plus the tour group has no requirement that tour members be vaccinated. I have to room with someone, person still unknown to me, and they might not be vaccinated or have had and recovered from Covid. With the new, more contagious variant I have tons of concerns about the safety of this trip.
They say that sites are less crowded and that they... (show quote)

It now appears that none of the vaccines offers reliable protection against becoming infected with the Delta variant. So while vaccines protect the vaccinated against severe illness, they likely don't curb the spread, since Delta can be spread by the vaccinated as well as the unvaccinated. Thus Egypt's 1% vaccination rate almost becomes a non-issue. My primary concern with your situation would be the hours spent in enclosed spaces with people outside my comfort zone, including a roommate-to-be-named-later, and I would not participate in the tour. Hopefully you have trip insurance to cover any losses.

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Aug 11, 2021 13:24:08   #
Mario22 Loc: Albany, NY
 
David Martin wrote:
It now appears that none of the vaccines offers reliable protection against becoming infected with the Delta variant. So while vaccines protect the vaccinated against severe illness, they likely don't curb the spread, since Delta can be spread by the vaccinated as well as the unvaccinated. Thus Egypt's 1% vaccination rate almost becomes a non-issue. My primary concern with your situation would be the hours spent in enclosed spaces with people outside my comfort zone, including a roommate-to-be-named-later, and I would not participate in the tour. Hopefully you have trip insurance to cover any losses.
It now appears that none of the vaccines offers re... (show quote)


Yes, I do have trip insurance and can supposedly cancel for any reason. The problem is that if I cancel the trip, I will loose 25-30% of the total paid. I don’t feel that I should have to take a loss. The tour company can’t deliver a safe trip. They have postponed it once and hopefully will again. But why can’t I obtain a full refund if they don’t provide the tour I purchased on the date I purchased to go. They refuse to cancel and refuse to give any refunds for any reason. They even have a contract you must sign that absolves them of giving any refunds. They simply say buy insurance. That’s not right.

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Aug 11, 2021 15:31:52   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
From what I've read, the Delta variant causes a breakout of infection in under one-percent of the vaccinated population.

Reports indicate that the vaccination for the Chinese killer virus effectively quells the Delta variant.

Mean time, this virus mutation hospitalizes and kills individuals almost exclusively among the unvaccinated.
David Martin wrote:
It now appears that none of the vaccines offers reliable protection against becoming infected with the Delta variant. So while vaccines protect the vaccinated against severe illness, they likely don't curb the spread, since Delta can be spread by the vaccinated as well as the unvaccinated. Thus Egypt's 1% vaccination rate almost becomes a non-issue. My primary concern with your situation would be the hours spent in enclosed spaces with people outside my comfort zone, including a roommate-to-be-named-later, and I would not participate in the tour. Hopefully you have trip insurance to cover any losses.
It now appears that none of the vaccines offers re... (show quote)

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Aug 11, 2021 15:35:12   #
BigOldArt Loc: Seminole, FL
 
https://www.nytimes.com/article/covid-breakthrough-delta-variant.html?campaign_id=190&emc=edit_ufn_20210811&instance_id=37681&nl=updates-from-the-newsroom&regi_id=136234810&segment_id=65980&te=1&user_id=57eabc15b8f7c83f373ffeb8bce8c8a2

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Aug 11, 2021 16:08:58   #
David Martin Loc: Cary, NC
 
anotherview wrote:
From what I've read, the Delta variant causes a breakout of infection in under one-percent of the vaccinated population.

2.6% in a relatively small study published August 8.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2109072?query=featured_home
So to go on the tour or not, depends on your risk tolerance.

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Aug 11, 2021 17:11:48   #
David Martin Loc: Cary, NC
 
Or 11.5% in an even smaller "study" if you look at the delegation of Texas legislators who fled to Washington, DC.

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Aug 11, 2021 18:05:02   #
NJphotodoc Loc: Now in the First State
 
As a doc and someone who works with our state and FEMA on fighting this pandemic, I would strongly suggest you to postpone your trip for the foreseeable future. The only Middle Eastern country whits a relatively high vaccination rate is Israel and they have just put into place a 3rd vaccination program as number start to rise due to the more aggressive Delta variant. Assuming you are fully vaccinated (hope I'm right i saying so), you may still fall ill although it should not be as bad as not being vaccinated, but you'll still have to isolate and spend your time recuperating in your hotel.
We just put our "bucket list" trip for 1 2-wk cruise in Europe on hold until 2022 having pushed it back once already from 2020. Yeah, it sucks, but it's better than being on a ventilator or worse.

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Aug 11, 2021 18:56:34   #
Mario22 Loc: Albany, NY
 
NJphotodoc wrote:
As a doc and someone who works with our state and FEMA on fighting this pandemic, I would strongly suggest you to postpone your trip for the foreseeable future. The only Middle Eastern country whits a relatively high vaccination rate is Israel and they have just put into place a 3rd vaccination program as number start to rise due to the more aggressive Delta variant. Assuming you are fully vaccinated (hope I'm right i saying so), you may still fall ill although it should not be as bad as not being vaccinated, but you'll still have to isolate and spend your time recuperating in your hotel.
We just put our "bucket list" trip for 1 2-wk cruise in Europe on hold until 2022 having pushed it back once already from 2020. Yeah, it sucks, but it's better than being on a ventilator or worse.
As a doc and someone who works with our state and ... (show quote)


I have decided that there is no way I’m traveling to the Middle East next Spring. Now, if the tour company would just cancel and refund my payment, rather than postponing the trip for yet another year. Who knows how many more variants there are going to be because a major portion of the world’s population has yet to be vaccinated. Maybe they will be less deadly and contagious and maybe not. Thx for your comments.

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