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Florida Building Collapse
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Jul 3, 2021 08:03:06   #
Doc Mck Loc: Terrell,Texas
 
A man is better off rowing his own boat, no matter how small. Words of wisdom from a life long survivor of the Great Depression. Orphaned at age 3, raised by his destitute widowed grandmother, graduated from the Pilot Point High School in PilotPoint Texas. Only 11 grades back then. He went to work at age 9 at the local grocery store. In the food business all his life. Died a multi millionaire. Lived in a$9,000 house that was quite comfortable. It was where I grew up. No a/c in Dallas ,Texas at that time. We adapted.

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Jul 3, 2021 08:30:18   #
MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama
 
rmalarz wrote:
Jerry, all one has to do is look at where this building, and many other buildings, are located. One has to realize that the ocean water doesn't stop where we see it on the beach. It extends a considerable distance inland. Thus, these buildings are sitting on a concrete foundation that is floating on the ground beneath which is in contact with the water table. Stability may be there, but only for a limited time.
--Bob


Back in my youthful days I worked for years drilling shallow irrigation wells in south Florida. From 12 to 18 feet you could obtain an endless supply of water which essentially is liquid sand under everything. The Florida Aquifer is something else and is deeper and limestone. So as you said, everything basically floats on this sand. Throw in corrosion, sea water intrusion etc ... and you have a recipe for disaster.

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Jul 3, 2021 13:26:20   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
PaulBrit wrote:
“Those folks have a problem.“ Millions of us are facing a whole series of problems. Welcome to the new world!


Absolutely! ...and when all this began to come to light back in the 80's, Florida was our 14th largest state, projected to become our 4th largest in the ensuing years. In 1980, 60% of our population nationwide lived within 50 miles of the coast. We are fast approaching a point where 80% will live within 50 miles of a shrinking coastline, if not already. If projections hold up, as we back away from the coast, it becomes clear that much of the economy of the nation will be threatened as the relocation process will not be cheap, not just of the people who will be forced to move who must deal with job interruptions, but the cost of rebuilding the infrastructure to accommodate the influx of the dislocated people, when and where it is even possible.

Several of our largest cities sit right on the water. How are we going to move New York City out of harms way when there's no buffer zone left to move anything to from the areas that will be threatened by the rising water level. How serious will the interruption of the maritime process of importing goods from our offshore suppliers be when the waterfront ports have been decimated as we are more and more dependent on imported goods. I cannot even begin to imagine the ultimate ramifications.

One thing seems for sure - whatever abatement process any one area utilizes to hold back the water is going to be at the expense of some nearby location because the water is definitely going to go somewhere and fortunes will be lost. A lot of that high rent coastline property that looks like gold now will submit to the upheaval and lose a lot of its current shine which will ripple through our entire economy.

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Jul 3, 2021 14:53:37   #
AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio
 
rmalarz wrote:
Jerry, all one has to do is look at where this building, and many other buildings, are located. One has to realize that the ocean water doesn't stop where we see it on the beach. It extends a considerable distance inland. Thus, these buildings are sitting on a concrete foundation that is floating on the ground beneath which is in contact with the water table. Stability may be there, but only for a limited time.
--Bob


Most people have no idea how unstable Florida property can be. I have a long time friend who lives in Palm Beach Shores, FL., which is right next to West Palm Beach. You can look across the channel 2 blocks from his house and see Kennedy's property and a lot of other folks who have way too much money. My friend always complained that you could dig a hole to plant something in the yard only 10 inches deep and the hole would fill up with ocean water within a few minutes. Scary!

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Jul 3, 2021 14:59:33   #
PaulBrit Loc: Merlin, Southern Oregon
 
gessman wrote:
Absolutely! ...and when all this began to come to light back in the 80's, Florida was our 14th largest state, projected to become our 4th largest in the ensuing years. In 1980, 60% of our population nationwide lived within 50 miles of the coast. We are fast approaching a point where 80% will live within 50 miles of a shrinking coastline, if not already. If projections hold up, as we back away from the coast, it becomes clear that much of the economy of the nation will be threatened as the relocation process will not be cheap, not just of the people who will be forced to move who must deal with job interruptions, but the cost of rebuilding the infrastructure to accommodate the influx of the dislocated people, when and where it is even possible.

Several of our largest cities sit right on the water. How are we going to move New York City out of harms way when there's no buffer zone left to move anything to from the areas that will be threatened by the rising water level. How serious will the interruption of the maritime process of importing goods from our offshore suppliers be when the waterfront ports have been decimated as we are more and more dependent on imported goods. I cannot even begin to imagine the ultimate ramifications.

One thing seems for sure - whatever abatement process any one area utilizes to hold back the water is going to be at the expense of some nearby location because the water is definitely going to go somewhere and fortunes will be lost. A lot of that high rent coastline property that looks like gold now will submit to the upheaval and lose a lot of its current shine which will ripple through our entire economy.
Absolutely! ...and when all this began to come to... (show quote)


I’m writing a book just now on Climate Change and one of the notes that I made when doing the research was that I sense an inflexion point is coming up. The right of young people to be fed up with us older people. (I am 76.) Indeed, one can put it more strongly; young people are very angry. They correctly feel that my generation created the problem. It’s difficult to realise that it was 1962 when Rachel Carson published her book Silent Spring. And just eight years later, 1970, the first Earth Day was held.

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Jul 3, 2021 15:04:05   #
AirWalter Loc: Tipp City, Ohio
 
charles tabb wrote:
Jerry, I have a theory that others can quibble about.
As I understand on the TV news that I saw. A lady was talking on the phone when it happened and before she screamed to the other party that she saw the bottom of the swimming pool's bottom had dropped out.

This leaves me to wonder if the cause of the collapse of the bottom of the pool being lighter then the building might be caused by a Sink Hole.


Along the Atlantic Coast in Florida in a community called Palm Beach Shores, which is right next to the Kennedy property in West Palm Beach, you can dig a 10 inch hole in the yard and it will fill up with ocean water in minutes. And they wonder where sink holes come from. I have always been amazed that in New York City that Manhattan hasn't disappeared into the water considering the weight of all those buildings.

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Jul 3, 2021 17:09:36   #
flip1948 Loc: Hamden, CT
 
AirWalter wrote:
Along the Atlantic Coast in Florida in a community called Palm Beach Shores, which is right next to the Kennedy property in West Palm Beach, you can dig a 10 inch hole in the yard and it will fill up with ocean water in minutes. And they wonder where sink holes come from. I have always been amazed that in New York City that Manhattan hasn't disappeared into the water considering the weight of all those buildings.

Simple answer: bedrock.

Compare Florida bedrock to NYC bedrock.

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Jul 4, 2021 09:09:17   #
Drbobcameraguy Loc: Eaton Ohio
 
PaulBrit wrote:
And it may be a while before the lid of Pandora’s box is re-closed!

Seriously, is there a source of information for your estimate of those “aging sea-saturated buildings” and, in particular, what is the effect of sea level rise? I am in the middle of writing a book on climate change so my interest in your (and others) replies is more than just curiosity!


Suggest you look at naps especially military maps due to accuracy from several decades ago and then look at naps from today. You will not find and sea level rise except in tide markers that are sinking due to dewatering. Here is a link with charts and stats that may be of interest to you. I also have maps on me if you would like to share information. https://qr.ae/pGPEZK

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Jul 4, 2021 10:27:28   #
MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama
 
I retired from Public utilities in Pinellas county Florida after working with water distribution and wastewater collection for nearly 30 years. My ex brother in law was a sinkhole attorney in Pasco county until Insurance lobbies had enough liability laws changed to make it a less profitable business for the homeowner, as well as the attorneys. Over building and over pumping of water has caused countless sinkholes in Florida. Over pumping in well fields have caused massive salt water intrusion and has caused water boards to go to alternate mixed sources of water which has its own problems. All water is different and mixing can be really detrimental. I think they will find that a sinkhole was at least partially to blame.

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Jul 4, 2021 18:46:03   #
PaulBrit Loc: Merlin, Southern Oregon
 
Drbobcameraguy wrote:
Suggest you look at naps especially military maps due to accuracy from several decades ago and then look at naps from today. You will not find and sea level rise except in tide markers that are sinking due to dewatering. Here is a link with charts and stats that may be of interest to you. I also have maps on me if you would like to share information. https://qr.ae/pGPEZK


That linked to one to a page on Quora. That page set out the fallacy of global warming. But I did a check elsewhere on Ashburton, New Zealand and the weather in Antartica and they presented a different picture; one of warming. Confused!

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Jul 4, 2021 22:49:31   #
Drbobcameraguy Loc: Eaton Ohio
 
PaulBrit wrote:
That linked to one to a page on Quora. That page set out the fallacy of global warming. But I did a check elsewhere on Ashburton, New Zealand and the weather in Antartica and they presented a different picture; one of warming. Confused!


The major media outlets and scientist whose funding comes from certain organizations must continue the screaming of global warming. If you care to research CO2 you will find it is not a greenhouse gas. Also our CO2 levels are I believe in the 700 ppm range now. Plants need CO2 to live. Sorry got side tracked. CO2 is NOT A GREENHOUSE GAS. Beckley of California did a study proving that before the global warming discussion was began. If it reflected heat we would be using it in our double pane windows to reflect the heat into our homes. Please I beg research CO2. As I stated pm me and I will supply facts. The Quora article had the temperature charts and such for years. Just thought it would make you think about what is going on. I'm all for clean air water and planet. I'm not for a fairytale to enrich people. Lol

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Jul 5, 2021 09:03:44   #
olemikey Loc: 6 mile creek, Spacecoast Florida
 
jerryc41 wrote:
I read an interesting article last night about the collapse. Structural defects were well-known for years. The board of directors got estimates for repairs, but all the tenants had to agree, since they owned the building and would be paying. This dragged on for years, with board members resigning over it. As time went on, the cost increased as the building's condition got worse, so resistance to paying for it increased. Residents would have had to pay tens of thousands of dollars each. There are lawsuits, but who can they sew? It's an awful situation.
I read an interesting article last night about the... (show quote)


The really really scary part for anyone in an older condo in Florida (any condo anywhere in Fla) is that there are no mandated inspection requirements.....the Florida Legislature has completely failed the populace on this matter, lobbied by those who build and own them............

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Jul 5, 2021 11:03:36   #
JBRIII
 
CO2 absorbs infrared radiation in the 5000 nm region of the spectra. This would normally be reflected from the ground and into space. Instead it is absorbed and heats the atmosphere. Even if CO2 had no such effect, plants only need so much, also CO2 is being absorbed by the oceans which become acidic, harder and harder for organisms to make carbonate shells. At some point shells dissolve faster than they can be made CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O = Ca(HCO3)2
CaCO3 is insoluble in water (Marble, limestone, shells), Ca(HCO3)2 is water soluble.

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Jul 5, 2021 12:00:44   #
MrBob Loc: lookout Mtn. NE Alabama
 
olemikey wrote:
The really really scary part for anyone in an older condo in Florida (any condo anywhere in Fla) is that there are no mandated inspection requirements.....the Florida Legislature has completely failed the populace on this matter, lobbied by those who build and own them............


I don't know about overall inspection requirements but as far as I know there are no inspections mandated for possible sinkhole developments.... The only reason I mention sinkhole as maybe being the primary cause is that a resident said that the pool DISAPPEARED moments before the collapse.... The building was still standing but the pool was gone... makes one wonder.

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Jul 5, 2021 13:52:50   #
Drbobcameraguy Loc: Eaton Ohio
 
JBRIII wrote:
CO2 absorbs infrared radiation in the 5000 nm region of the spectra. This would normally be reflected from the ground and into space. Instead it is absorbed and heats the atmosphere. Even if CO2 had no such effect, plants only need so much, also CO2 is being absorbed by the oceans which become acidic, harder and harder for organisms to make carbonate shells. At some point shells dissolve faster than they can be made CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O = Ca(HCO3)2
CaCO3 is insoluble in water (Marble, limestone, shells), Ca(HCO3)2 is water soluble.
CO2 absorbs infrared radiation in the 5000 nm regi... (show quote)

Except the ir spectrum of CO2 does not support that latest theory. It is and was the most stuffed gas since almost the beginning of scientific study as we know it. Here is an article you may enjoy.

Attached file:
(Download)

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