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Florida Building Collapse
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Jul 2, 2021 12:07:19   #
CWGordon
 
W/o knowing what the Condo rules actually state, we are doing nothing more than whistling in the wind. Some may require different procedures than others. I, for one, have no idea what the rules for that Tower or complex required.
Insurance probably would argue that Association failed to mitigate their damages by not taking proper and appropriate corrective action years ago. While I have never read their policy, either, you can bet the Carrier ain’t goin’ down easy.

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Jul 2, 2021 13:05:41   #
One Rude Dawg Loc: Athol, ID
 
elliott937 wrote:
Calling it 'aging sea-saturated building' is so accurate. Built on a concrete slab, sitting on sand, and right next to rising water. And the water will continue to rise.


My question, why are people still allowed to live in New Orleans at tax payers expense? A money hole if there ever was one. Unless it is used as a training exercise for the Army Corps Of Engineers. You might say the owner members in Florida got what they didn't want to pay for.

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Jul 2, 2021 13:19:44   #
Wuligal Loc: Slippery Rock, Pa.
 
One Rude Dawg wrote:
My question, why are people still allowed to live in New Orleans at tax payers expense? A money hole if there ever was one. Unless it is used as a training exercise for the Army Corps Of Engineers. You might say the owner members in Florida got what they didn't want to pay for.


There you go again.....using common sense.

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Jul 2, 2021 13:42:52   #
ecblackiii Loc: Maryland
 
JBRIII wrote:
There may be some truth there, but more than half board did quit at one point. A bigger problem I believe is expecting people to do what no one else wants done. These are friends and neighbors saying no. How many people, unless you absolutely knew it was an emminent life and death situation, would override the majority and order what needed to be done be done. There needs to be a system where someone outside the owners says do this now. Even then there would lawsuits, etc., and whether the politicians would back that person is a big question.
There may be some truth there, but more than half ... (show quote)


There is a system--that was not followed. State and County law typically sets standards for operation of HOAs and COAs, to include responsibilities of Board Members, and requirements for establishment of adequate financial reserves and collecting assessments for maintaining properties. If there is a safety issue, the local government has the power to step in and order repairs or to condemn the building.

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Jul 2, 2021 13:50:36   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
Archboo3 wrote:
Would the Condo assoc. be required by law to maintain a fund for just such repairs?


$16,000,000.00? It seems rather unlikely.

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Jul 2, 2021 14:04:15   #
ecblackiii Loc: Maryland
 
clint f. wrote:
$16,000,000.00? It seems rather unlikely.


The amount is immaterial since it is dependent upon the building. The larger and more expensive the replacement cost of the building, the more maintenance will cost. The usual requirement is that financial reserves be systematically collected in advance for the anticipated infrastructure maintenance, repair, and replacement costs over a 20-30 year plan--as prepared by an engineer. An unexpected expenditure would have to be paid for via a special assessment (in addition to regular reserve assessments) to cover whatever the cost might be. A lot of condo associations over the past decade have failed to fulfil requirements in law, with many declaring bankruptcy as a result--which means the owners may loose their investment. To meet this problem, states are beginning to strengthen their HOA/COA management and operation laws further.

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Jul 2, 2021 14:20:59   #
clint f. Loc: Priest Lake Idaho, Spokane Wa
 
ecblackiii wrote:
The amount is immaterial since it is dependent upon the building. The larger and more expensive the replacement cost of the building, the more maintenance will cost. The usual requirement is that financial reserves be systematically collected in advance for the anticipated infrastructure maintenance, repair, and replacement costs over a 20-30 year plan--as prepared by an engineer. An unexpected expenditure would have to be paid for via a special assessment (in addition to regular reserve assessments) to cover whatever the cost might be. A lot of condo associations over the past decade have failed to fulfil requirements in law, with many declaring bankruptcy as a result--which means the owners may loose their investment. To meet this problem, states are beginning to strengthen their HOA/COA management and operation laws further.
The amount is immaterial since it is dependent upo... (show quote)


The operative term you used is expected. I get your point, but that is a lot of cash.

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Jul 2, 2021 17:50:49   #
chrissybabe Loc: New Zealand
 
Reinforces my desire to never live in a building with others.
We have a similar thing in NZ called"wet building syndrome". It is where water has gained ingress to the walls (etc) and rotted everything requiring, in some cases, a full rebuild. It is ongoing and is going to cost billions. Caused by an assorted mixture of the following - using untreated timber, failure of competent building inspection, failure of a popular building product, incompetent workmanship (correct flashing to keep water out) and various failures. This is ongoing.
On top of this is the increasingly awareness of sea levels rising with local councils thinking of abandoning large numbers of seacoast properties which will cause housing values to drop and insurance rates to rise. This will also cost billions.
Looks like the US will be entering into a period of climate and building unrest. And I though it was caused by Tofu.

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Jul 2, 2021 19:48:51   #
thommy
 
elliott937 wrote:
Calling it 'aging sea-saturated building' is so accurate. Built on a concrete slab, sitting on sand, and right next to rising water. And the water will continue to rise.


Anybody else read Carl Hiessen back in the day?

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Jul 2, 2021 20:57:06   #
ClarkJohnson Loc: Fort Myers, FL and Cohasset, MA
 
thommy wrote:
Anybody else read Carl Hiessen back in the day?


Love Carl Hiaasen, but what about John McDonald’s book « Condominium » from the 70s, about a Florida condo that collapsed due to shoddy construction? A novel but all too prophetic. Greed wins again.

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Jul 2, 2021 21:00:44   #
gessman Loc: Colorado
 
This was expected, is a long time coming, and is probably just the first of many to follow. If you don't believe in global warming, now's a good time to think about investing in real estate in Florida because if there's one more collapse, if that's even needed, prices will hit rock bottom. I was there, doing that, in 1984, when Dr. Stephen Schneider's documentary on global warming was released on PBS, a place where a lot of compelling social issues have been raised. I figured in six months it would be mainstream news, a year at most. It took a little longer than that but by mid-1986 President Reagan had asked Congress to assign a task force of renowned scientists to study Schneider's concept in terms of reality and what the worst case scenario might be if true, so Dr. James Hansen, head of NASA was picked to head up the team. President Reagan wanted the report on his desk by Dec 31st and he had it. I have soaked up everything I could find on the subject, even got my hands on a copy of Hansen's report before President Reagan did and it's amazing, the foresight of Hansen's team and watching it play out almost daily in terms of the predictions in the report.

A book by Dr. Orrin Pilkey of Duke U., entitled "The Beaches are Moving" is a must read prior to considering Florida as a place to make your fortune unless you want to work picking up building debris for a living or helping people move with scuba gear on. I came to the conclusion that I just needed to sell out and move back to Colorado. The market has remained strong longer than I thought it would and I lost some short term profits but Dr. Pilkey predicted the collapse of large buildings around the coastline in the future and it has taken longer than I expected based on Pilkey's findings in such matters as he surveyed the entire USA coastline. Pilkey has since written some other books, one entitled, "The Last Beach," which are also worth reading if you want to understand what Florida and other places that are built on sand are facing, more especially those built on barrier islands which is supposed to be against the law. For your convenience: https://www.google.com/search?q=orrin+pilkey&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS850US850&oq=Orrin+Pilkey&aqs=chrome.0.0i355j46l2j0j0i22i30j69i61j69i60l2.6045j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

The southeast side of Miami is battling water in the streets as we speak and the drinking water supply is in an aquifer beneath the city and in serious danger of salt water pollution - it needs some form of encapsulation of the aquifer but that can't happen with all the buildings on top of it. Those folks have a problem.

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Jul 2, 2021 21:22:49   #
thommy
 
I read everything John D. Macdonald wrote back in the day, and loved them all.

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Jul 2, 2021 22:40:28   #
Wyantry Loc: SW Colorado
 
CWGordon wrote:
I was recently contemplating purchase of a beachside condo in Florida. I changed my mind.
Initially, my concern was rising water levels combined with the more serious storms resulting from climate change. I had never considered the types of issues that haunted this building and led to its’ collapse.

Law School students are taught that you must have three things present to successfully sue under Tort Theories (Civil Law for this kind of issue, Personal Injury, etc.):
1. A duty
2. (that is) Breached
3. (consequent) Damages/Injury/loss
We have all of those present in the case of a building collapse, I think. Who or what entity had a duty? Likely the Condo Owners Association. If they kept trying to get the owners to pay up, did they breach their duty to ensure the building was safe? Probably not. Surely there are horrific damages to both life and property. So, you have 2 out of 3 requirements met, duty and damages. However, a major question remains regarding whether there was an actual breach of that duty. Case seems weak, already. Seems like Inspectors did their duty, but you can argue they missed how imminent the collapse was. So, maybe, but unlikely that it is their fault. Apparently, they advised regarding continual deterioration of building. Liability looks weak here.

All good law school professors advise that their is an unwritten, but very real 4th prong to this test in evaluating whether there is a strong, weak, or any case, at all. That is:
4. “Deep Pockets” / Money
If you clearly had the 3 mentioned hereinabove, is there an entity that had a duty, breached it, and that that had directly led to the damages or injuries, does that entity have any money to pay as compensation for damages/injury and pain and suffering? Good question. The Condo Assoc. apparently had not enough money to fix the much needed repairs. The owners who might have assessments against them to pay a court-ordered judgement are mostly now dead. Would an insurance company be responsible? Maybe. But, Insurance companies are not in the business of paying claims. They will surely argue that the Owners, and everyone else they can think of, is responsible for not repairing KNOWN structural defects. They only are responsible to pay up for damages from HIDDEN defects. This is a strong argument. W/o knowing exactly what the policy states, I cannot predict with certainty what their coverage will be, if any at all. We shall see, but don’t hold your breath. This will be lengthy litigation and expensive to hire good lawyers and experts by plaintiffs. Defense entities will have no problem hiring attorneys and experts. Even if costly, engineers, experts, etc. involved in this disaster most likely have insurance that will be obligated to pay for their defense costs. Professional Liability (malpractice) Policies they are usually called. Things are looking pretty bleak here for plaintiffs, so far.

Maybe Florida has liability. Maybe they should have inspected and condemned the building long ago. Maybe those that were hired by Condo Assoc. should have reported their findings to the State of Florida. Maybe they did. Maybe they had no legal obligation, in Florida, to do so. Maybe they met all their legal obligations. Idon’t think we will have such answers for years.

All I have mentioned is nothing compared to the issues raised and argued in the Courts. I don’t know much, but between experts, lawyers, court costs, this is a big deal. Will plaintiff attorneys be able to fill the bill for the years of delays and procedures and motions filed by defense teams or will they give up or not really enter the fray. Will a big-time firm do the case for the publicity it might gain them? These and many more questions remain to be answered. Depositions, Discovery, Requests for Documents all are efforts just to get enough information to determine whether it is worth pursuing or to find out if there are any deep pockets, anywhere. This process alone could be extremely lengthy.

What will this case do to insurance and increased inspection costs and condo fees nationally? How will this affect condo owner fees and sales prices?
Plenty of questions. Currently, few answers.
I was recently contemplating purchase of a beachsi... (show quote)

Nice analysis. Thank you.

Again, the only people that really make money on this sort of thing are the lawyers . . . .

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Jul 2, 2021 23:06:07   #
JBRIII
 
ClarkJohnson wrote:
Love Carl Hiaasen, but what about John McDonald’s book « Condominium » from the 70s, about a Florida condo that collapsed due to shoddy construction? A novel but all too prophetic. Greed wins again.


There was also a book called "Futility, the Wreck of the Titan" written in 1898, about a ship called the Titan hitting an iceberg in the north atlantic!!!!

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Jul 3, 2021 07:10:19   #
PaulBrit Loc: Merlin, Southern Oregon
 
“Those folks have a problem.“ Millions of us are facing a whole series of problems. Welcome to the new world!

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