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Mirrorless - a different view
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Mar 25, 2021 19:49:14   #
redlegfrog
 
Bbarn wrote:
Still have my turntable and several LPs. Never listen to them. Maybe it's time to sell that stuff to those who enjoy snap, crackle and pop. Maybe in 40 years people will be looking for vintage SLRs for the pleasure in hearing mirror slap.



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Mar 25, 2021 19:59:23   #
craggycrossers Loc: Robin Hood Country, UK
 
Ysarex wrote:
I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was just re-enforcing the point.


Mmmm - the "point" to which I responded was "as a general rule mirrorless cameras don't perform well in low light" - it's clear in the "quote reply" - I guess we really are "two nations separated by a common language" !

On a lighter note - how nice it is to sit back and watch people "arguing" about issues I personally resolved some six to seven years ago !

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Mar 25, 2021 20:27:26   #
Haydon
 
Ysarex wrote:
And how did both of those (film & DSLR) compare with downloads and streaming (mirrorless)?


If you saw my quote reply to Bbarn's, it will make sense.

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Mar 25, 2021 20:38:58   #
ShelbyDave Loc: Lone Rock, WI
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
One can sooner stop the sun from rising than deny the arrival of mirrorless cameras.


Agreed, and I like the sunrise AND mirrorless cameras.

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Mar 25, 2021 21:37:38   #
Canisdirus
 
craggycrossers wrote:
If you don't have the experience, and, perhaps, only listen to "hearsay", then your opinion can become "somewhat fuzzy" - maybe not even correct !

Like Ysarex I've been a mirrorless user for more years than many on this forum - happily used to use a Nikon D700, have used Fuji X-Series, still do, and now added Nikon Z in the last month. I'm simply an enthusiast-cum-hobbyist, but now, and for my reasons, am totally mirrorless. I'm also in a different country, but that shouldn't make any difference.

Here's a couple of "low light" shots taken 3 months ago with Fuji X-T2 (now 2 generations behind the latest Fuji tech) - only light is the candle - camera has an APS-C sensor, not full frame - so tell me please "does my mirrorless camera really not do well in low light ?"

#1 : X-T2 with 35mm XF f1.4 lens - 1/80 sec, f1.4, ISO 500
#2 : X-T2, same lens - 1/100 sec, f1.4, ISO 800

To the "you'll never get me into a mirrorless camera" brigade - fine. Your choice. Be happy. Stay happy.
Some of us have "made the leap to mirrorless", and long ago, our choice. Guess what - we're content too !
Peaceful co-existence !
If you don't have the experience, and, perhaps, on... (show quote)


You are quite correct.
Folks who think low light capabilities are connected to the mirror or an optical viewfinder..don't quite understand photography.
It has a LOT to do with the size of the sensor, and which sensor (latest gen vs aging gen)
DSLR's are all standing still now tech wise...while mirrorless keeps on getting innovated.

Like I said previously...curved sensors are coming....and there won't be a single one of them going into a DSLR.

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Mar 25, 2021 22:18:43   #
Edia Loc: Central New Jersey
 
Marketing is a factor in the camera business as in the car industry. We buy the shiny new object even if we don't need it. People with deep pockets buy a Ferrari that can go 200 mph even though there is no road in the US that will allow it to legally go faster than 80 mph. Why? Because they can. Amateur photographers buy Professional level cameras and lenses to take photos of their grandkids or their vacation trips. Why? Because they can.

When digital photography began, the cameras and photos were no where as good as the film versions. DSLRs have improved greatly over time. Most point and shoot cameras were and are mirrorless. The point and shoot camera market was killed by the iphone. Most camera manufacturers are now making mirrorless cameras that exceed the capabilities of their DSLRs. The camera market depends on progress. If they do not come up with new and improved units, they will go out of business.

I own an Iphone 12 Promax. When I take photos of my grandkids and travel (after Covid) this is what I reach for. Every year, the digital phone cameras get better and better. Camera manufacturers only change their cameras every 3 or 4 years. At this rate, it does not look good for the camera business.

I look at the camera as a tool like a hammer. In the hands of an expert, the tool can produce wonderful things.

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Mar 25, 2021 23:18:57   #
ronpier Loc: Poland Ohio
 
Wallen wrote:
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Maybe it is time to look beyond the news and advertisements.

Manufacturers want sales. That is what all this noise is about. Everyday we encounter advertisements and press release all pointed to that direction - sales.

It's always a miracle product that will bring heaven to earth and to hell and back being shoved up all our senses and body openings. All for sales.

It doesn't matter to them if we need it or not. They will lie and hustle the green out of our hands.

So why listen? Why do we believe the press releases and the ads? Why not have a look beyond?
Stand on your own and Have a different view.

Here is my own. Warning, its not mainstream and may touch some egos and probably hate. But this is just me talking out loud, speaking my own.

DSLR is dead!!!

Well maybe that is what they wanted. All the hype and misdirection pushes the mirrorless wonder product so far ahead of the DSLR that it is obsolete- so they say.
Be truthful. Is it? When you bought that mirrorless, did your photography improved by 10 folds? 100? 1000 times better? Or were you just conned out to get the latest gear?

Manufacturers are always looking to produce with the least cost and sell at the highest price. If mirrorless is sold with the same "cost to sales" premium, it will cost about 3/4 or at extremes 1/2 the price of an equivalent DSLR. Why? Because mechanical parts, materials like magnesium bodies and actual assembly of such, cost more. Electronics, molded plastics and smaller amount(size) cost much less.

Imagine a single button on a Toyota. What if that button cost dollar? If i produce 1 million cars, that is an extra 1 million dollars of investment. Meaning if i design something without buttons, I save millions. Suddenly touch screens makes a lot of sense!

A mirrorless is basically a dumbed down video camera. They made it look like a DSLR so it can take its place. Instead of shooting video they made it shoot slower, then advertise that their camera shoots 20 frames per second!!! Faster than your DSLR!!! Yea right...

So it shoots 10 - 20 - 25 frames a second, how many are in focus? 50%? 25%? 1 image?

The technology of the mirrorless has been around since the invention of the tv and are just getting repurposed. Innovation as some would say. It is not new, that is just hype. Don't buy into it.

Am I against mirrorless? Nope, not at all. But let us see things the way they really are. Cut the bull, forget the advertisement and hype. If it fits your style and improves your photography, then by all means buy as much as you can. Help the manufacturer so they can go back to making better cameras.

But if you are buying just for the hype, you are feeding the money train instead of supporting the production of better equipment.

Ask yourself, If they can put 4 cameras in a celphone and sell it for half the price of a mirrorless, what did you miss? Have you just been robbed?
We keep hearing the hubadubs that DSLR is dead. Ma... (show quote)


Suffered thru six pages of the same argument as RAW vs JPEG with no end in sight. To both arguments I say “to each his/her own. Buy what you want, use what you want, shoot what you want. The end result is what matters and not necessarily how it got there. Are we having fun yet?”

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Mar 25, 2021 23:35:13   #
Wyantry Loc: SW Colorado
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
You’re a crazy fool if you think this contraption will ever displace the horse ...

You’re a crazy fool if you think autofocus has a place in professional photography ...

You’re a crazy fool if you think digital cameras will replace film ...

You’re a crazy fool if you think Americans will sit on their couch and order their shoes (groceries, books, clothes, etc) and have them delivered without ever trying them on ...


To which you can add:

You’re a crazy fool if you think a non-mirrorless camera will prevent you from being a good photographer . . . .

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Mar 25, 2021 23:46:53   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
The universe works in crazy ways. You can have good luck wash over you in waves, just like bad luck. Or, you can change to a mirrorless camera.


I changed from mirrorless back to DSLR and am very glad I did.

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Mar 26, 2021 00:55:04   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
Ysarex wrote:
That's wrong. One example of why that's wrong is the focus systems in the cameras. Mirrorless cameras are implementing their auto-focus systems directly on the sensor. This has the advantage of unparalleled accuracy. That's a technology going into mirrorless that you can't apply to a DSLR.
It can be applied, they just don't want to. During live view when the mirror is up there is no reason why the autofocus technology used in the mirrorless can not be applied. There is nothing on the way and the back screen will act as an EVF.
Ysarex wrote:

The wide angle lens design compromise in force for all DSLRs results in larger heavier lenses and lenses with uncorrectable distortion. A perfect example of this difference can be seen in comparing a Hasselblad SWC with a Zeiss 40mm Distagon for the Hasselblad SLR. The fact that both exist testifies to the existence of the issue.
No there is not. Some designs can easily cope with the requirements of wide angle lens on DSLR. Performance compromise within physical boundaries is a manufacturers decision.
Ysarex wrote:
More rubbish. The lens mount to sensor distance is a critical factor in lens design and performance.
No it is not. Any reasonable mount to sensor distance can be accommodated by the adjusting the focusand if out of range, designing a lens element for that distance. That is why extension tubes & bellows work.[/quote]
Ysarex wrote:

Wide angle lenses on DSLRs are performance compromised by being forced farther away from the sensor in order to provide room for the mirror. This is common knowledge. Here's a wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angénieux_retrofocus and a paragraph from the article: "In still photography, a single-lens reflex camera requires a space for the reflex mirror, imposing a limit on the use of wide-angle lenses of symmetric designs. The retrofocus lens addressed this situation by increasing the distance between the rear element and the focal plane, thus making wider-angle lenses usable while retaining normal viewing and focusing. Unless the reflex mirror were locked in the "up" position, blacking out the viewfinder, the rearmost element(s) of a non-retrofocus (symmetric wide-angle) lens would interfere with the movement of the mirror as it flipped up and down during exposure."
br Wide angle lenses on DSLRs are performance com... (show quote)
You really have your own ideas when you read something. Read it again, slower and without bias.

Let me clarify things for you;
1. The telephoto lens configuration combines positive and negative lens groups with the positive at the front, so as to reduce the back focal distance of the lens.
2. This is for practical, not for optical reasons
meaning there is no IQ problem about changing/controlling the distance to create an optically good lens
3. The inverted telephoto configuration by is the same design but employs one or more negative lens groups to increase the back focal distance.

A. A single-lens reflex camera requires a space for the reflex mirror, imposing a limit on symmetric design wide angle lens.
B.The inverted telephoto configuration lens addresses this situation by increasing the distance between the rear element and the focal plane
C.The Angénieux retrofocus lens is a wide-angle lens design that use an inverted telephoto configuration.
The Angénieux retrofocus lens & other similar design allows manufacture of wide angle lenses in SLR & similar cameras with long back focal distance. It does not have the compromise you are talking about.

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Mar 26, 2021 01:27:32   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
ronpier wrote:
Suffered thru six pages of the same argument as RAW vs JPEG with no end in sight. To both arguments I say “to each his/her own. Buy what you want, use what you want, shoot what you want. The end result is what matters and not necessarily how it got there. Are we having fun yet?”


There should actually be no argument.

The gist is simple;
Mirrorless should cost less because its manufacturing cost is less.
And that there is too much hype, push, commentaries & argument to make photographers transfer to mirrorless almost to the point bullying other users.

All I care for is my monies worth, none of the bull and if possible for others to be fair and not add to the hype.

In closing,
It seems to me that they do not want to improve the DSLR anymore as any new tech goes to the new kid on the block. So perhaps someday the mirrorless would be the superior camera. As of now, there is still a place for both.

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Mar 26, 2021 08:36:24   #
ShelbyDave Loc: Lone Rock, WI
 
Edia wrote:
Marketing is a factor in the camera business as in the car industry. We buy the shiny new object even if we don't need it. People with deep pockets buy a Ferrari that can go 200 mph even though there is no road in the US that will allow it to legally go faster than 80 mph. Why? Because they can. Amateur photographers buy Professional level cameras and lenses to take photos of their grandkids or their vacation trips. Why? Because they can.

When digital photography began, the cameras and photos were no where as good as the film versions. DSLRs have improved greatly over time. Most point and shoot cameras were and are mirrorless. The point and shoot camera market was killed by the iphone. Most camera manufacturers are now making mirrorless cameras that exceed the capabilities of their DSLRs. The camera market depends on progress. If they do not come up with new and improved units, they will go out of business.

I own an Iphone 12 Promax. When I take photos of my grandkids and travel (after Covid) this is what I reach for. Every year, the digital phone cameras get better and better. Camera manufacturers only change their cameras every 3 or 4 years. At this rate, it does not look good for the camera business.

I look at the camera as a tool like a hammer. In the hands of an expert, the tool can produce wonderful things.
Marketing is a factor in the camera business as in... (show quote)



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Mar 26, 2021 09:27:47   #
kufengler Loc: Meridian, Idaho 83646
 
Was there a similar argument when digital cameras first appeared and film slowly went away for the average photographer?

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Mar 26, 2021 09:30:53   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
kufengler wrote:
Was there a similar argument when digital cameras first appeared and film slowly went away for the average photographer?


So much so, the text of the original post could have been cut and pasted from the internet archives circa March 2000 with just a find search & change of 'film' to 'DSLR' and 'digital' to 'mirrorless'.

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Mar 26, 2021 09:32:12   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Wallen wrote:
It can be applied, they just don't want to. During live view when the mirror is up there is no reason why the autofocus technology used in the mirrorless can not be applied. There is nothing on the way and the back screen will act as an EVF.

Removing the mirror function in a DSLR so that it works like a point and shoot with no eye level viewfinder is not applying mirrorless technology to a DSLR. The back LCD on any camera is not an EVF and not a substitute for an EVF. You dug a dumb hole and now you're digging it deeper.

The whole point of a DSLR is the optical viewfinder. It's a really nice feature. But you can't employ on sensor auto focus technology when the mirror is down and the shutter is closed. You were wrong.
Wallen wrote:
1. The telephoto lens configuration combines positive and negative lens groups with the positive at the front, so as to reduce the back focal distance of the lens.
2. This is for practical, not for optical reasons
meaning there is no IQ problem about changing/controlling the distance to create an optically good lens.

Not true for wide angle lenses (see linked article below).
Wallen wrote:
3. The inverted telephoto configuration by is the same design but employs one or more negative lens groups to increase the back focal distance.

A. A single-lens reflex camera requires a space for the reflex mirror, imposing a limit on symmetric design wide angle lens.
B.The inverted telephoto configuration lens addresses this situation by increasing the distance between the rear element and the focal plane

I know how it works. I linked the article for you.
Wallen wrote:
C.The Angénieux retrofocus lens is a wide-angle lens design that use an inverted telephoto configuration.
The Angénieux retrofocus lens & other similar design allows manufacture of wide angle lenses in SLR & similar cameras with long back focal distance. It does not have the compromise you are talking about.

You're wrong. This is common knowledge. The retrofocus design solves the problem of providing room for the mirror but makes it extremely difficult to design the lens free of distortion. Lenses of that design no matter how hard the manufacturer tries will exhibit some degree of distortion after they have been made twice as big twice as heavy and twice as costly. If they could design the distortion out they would. In fact they do design it out by using a different lens design but then there's no room for the mirror.

How is it you missed basic common knowledge? Here's an article that will help: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2011/03/the-development-of-wide-angle-lenses/

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