goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl

CamB Loc: Juneau, Alaska

Outtakes for me are the shots that don’t work. Out of focus, bad cropping or exposure, bad expressions or an idea that just didn’t work. The client will never get these. They are buying my skill and vision, not my mistakes. I wouldn’t hang an outtake in my gallery. Once I have delivered finished prints or files they can do what they want with them but no one ever sees the outtakes.
...Cam

edrobinsonjr Loc: Boise, Idaho

[quote=NormanTheGr8]

rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona

There have been several very useful suggestions set out in the replies to your post. I'm in the corner of those who skillfully renumber the photographs to avoid gaps in the sequence and providing only those in which your talent is demonstrated to its fullest. In this manner, only the best of the subjects and your skills are provided.
--Bob

lensmaster Loc: Chicago

'don't use photographers because they want total control".
Really???
tell that to your doctor or dentist. 'let me use your tools because I want total control.' See how far that gets you.

also....do they want professional results or do they want 'Uncle Harry' and his IPhone to shoot the wedding??? IF that is good enough for them you have already lost the argument.

The bottom line is that if a possible client starts to pull that stuff in the pre-planning stage you have to have enough confidence to say 'bye'. Not worth the hassle or the argument afterwards.

gouldopfl

[quote=lensmaster]'don't use photographers because they want total control".
Really???

I wasn't saying this is a valid excuse but it is a fact for many. Also why do I need a photographer when I have many people with cellphone cameras. This is just a fact of where people's minds are today. I know people that go to the justice of the peace because they would rather spend the money on the honeymoon or drinks at the bar.

also....do they want professional results or do they want 'Uncle Harry' and his IPhone to shoot the wedding??? IF that is good enough for them you have already lost the argument.

This isn't my argument and if you had read the whole post, I was advocating for wedding photographers to not release the "out takes". The fact is that more people just don't want to spend the money on things that don't matter. I have always wanted family heirlooms, but I will probably sell many of them because they aren't important to the younger generation.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

I shot my first "solo" wedding when I was 16-years old. I had been assisting a seasoned professional photographer since I was 14-years old. That first wedding assignment was an "emergency"- one of our staff photographers fell seriously ill just hours before the wedding- I was told to go home, put on a suit and handed the 4x5 camera, a strobe and a case full of holders and sent off in a taxi- I had not yet a driver's license. My assistant (we used multiple flashes) was the darkroom kid- a lower rank than me! I was "big" for my age and the bride was only 19 so we all got along and I shot 150 images- the job was successful.

I recently celebrated my 77th birthday and although most of my work nowadays is commercial, industrial and portraiture, I still shoot weddings. My wife thigs I am crazy but I am like that football, hockey, and baseball players who work well beyond their prime years and still score! I work with a small crew of young folks who will eventually take of that department.

Since that first job, I have shot literally thousands of weddings and events. Over the years I have taken nay courses in the wedding and portraiture specialty- methods, lighting, concepts, marketing, and legalities and the business end of the job. My first Masters's credential was earned mostly in wedding and portrait photography.

Now, folks, I am not here to boast about my credentials, education or, experience but suffice it to say that I've been actively engaged in this sector of the business for a very long time and it is still a viable and successful aspect on my business operation. Nor am I here to give anyone a detailed tutorial on wedding photography concepts. Just consider this "advice" from an old photographer with a grey beard:

If your clients are looking at the frame numbers on your images rather than the content of your coverage and are NOT bowled over by the impact of the emotion, style and beauty you created for them, you are in deep "you know what"!

Common sense- when you watch a good movie unless you are a student of cinematography, are you interested in the outtakes- the film on the editor's floor? Or are you impacted by the story, the performances, the music, the emotional content? Are Acadamy Awards bestowed on the outtakes or the finished product?

I'm 61 years, I have never shown a wedding or portrait client unfinished contact sheets with sprocket holes, and "Kodak Safety Film emblazoned in the margins- those are distractions! I didn't want to spend hours explaining why "proofs are rough" and all the things I was going to fix. I fixed whatever was needed to be fixed before showing the images. The selection process was based on creating storey telling sequences with emotion, joyous, and even funny impact. My digital presentation is not different- images are shown in sequence and the number and identification system is my own- not what came out of the camera or the EXIF data.

Y'all do not have to adopt my concept but if anyone wants to survive in the wedding photography business, CREATE a CONCEPT of your own, other than having the client select images like an amateur buying photofinishing services and start shooting more creatively and emotionally.

More common sense. The wedding clients buy many other services- catering, floral bouquets and decoration, entertainment- musicians or a DJ. Are they asked to grow or pick the flowers, arrange them? Are they asked to pitch in and help cook the food, or set up the sound gear? NO! they hire professionals, make s selections and leave the rest to trusted pros! Be one!

If you are a professional photographer running a business you have no time to be an amateur lawyer. Consult a real one! Put your policies down on paper and have a lawyer construct a contract form that is ethical and protects the interest of all parties. Have it converted to English and avoid small print or ambiguous terms. The fee you pay the lawyer is money well spent because you will preclude the high legal fees that arise if you have disagreements with cleits and even nasty lawsuits.

I am not one to refuse business. I enjoy shooting weddings and creating good stuff for my customers and the money is good too. If however, if I detect an uncooperative potential client, I will gracefully decline the job. I detest the word "bridezilla" - I treat the brides and grooms like my own kids! I seldom encounter a downright nasty bride or groom to be-it's just that some folks don't see eye to eye with me or my policies or methodologies, have other concepts or methods in mind. They are perfectly OK fols but would be better served elsewhere.

A little more common sense: Folks will not spend their hard-earned money with people they don't like and get along with.

My only hard a fast rule is that I will never shoot a wedding unless I can plan the logistics, the concept, and the terms well in advance, with the wedding couple. The only time a break that rule is if one of my friendly competitors have an emergency- an illness, a family loss, or some kind of unfortunate occurrence and can not cover a job- we kinda have a mutual pact! After all, my first solo job was an "emergency"!

Rtaylor Loc: Pleasanton ca

The difference between an amateur and a professional photographer. An amateur shows all the photos. The professional only shows the best.

JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco

I'm sure there are many amateurs who only show their best, and we know from this thread that there are professionals who do show all the photos.

Kozan Loc: Trenton Tennessee

Absolutely under NO circumstances show the bad photos. You will regret it. Even if they don't get reposted to the Internet, they may make comments such as "Half the photos he took were terrible".

Back in the days of film, we used to promise 20 good 8x10s in an album. A year later we would offer the rest for a certain price, BUT NEVER bad photos.

RPaul3rd Loc: Arlington VA and Sarasota FL

One suggestion: What you will supply and how you will supply them should be stated in a tightly crafted contract. Present only what you want the customer to see. Your reputation and future business are at stake here. That is your prerogative, not the customer's. Not a sermon, just a thought. Not a sermon, just a thought or two.

Fredrick Loc: Former NYC, now San Francisco Bay Area

Could they not know by the default naming convention from your camera output? I guess you could circumvent that by renaming all your images, though.

BebuLamar

My point simply is. You hired me to take and deliver a certain number of images and I did that. No more regardless.....

fantom Loc: Colorado

Now you know for the next time he gets married---as I am sure he will.

wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado