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Client wants the Outtakes
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Feb 14, 2021 10:32:37   #
rcarol
 
BebuLamar wrote:
Besides from the photos you deliver to them, any others simply don't exist. How do they know that you have more photos than what you delivered to them?


Probably by the missing numbers the camera assigns to the images. A way around the is to cull the images and renumber the remaining images.

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Feb 14, 2021 10:39:08   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
fotoman150 wrote:
For you pros, or anyone with an opinion.

Occasionally, I get a client that wants me to post all of the outtakes (bad pictures) on their Zenfolio site so they can see them and judge for themselves whether or not to keep them.

This happened with the last wedding. I told them that I usually don't show those because it ruins the overall impression of the gallery and sometimes people even get angry when I show them because they feel like they got bad pictures.

The groom said he had several apps that could correct the photos. I told him that is uncool and that if there is something that needed work I would have retouched them and posted them.

We went back and forth like this for awhile until I just gave in and posted the outtakes because I felt like it was going to get me a bad review if I didn't. He was like, "We paid for pictures that we're not getting."

I've had this problem off and on for years. What is your opinion? I'm thinking about putting it in my contract that the outtakes will not be available for viewing, downloading or printing.
For you pros, or anyone with an opinion. br br Oc... (show quote)


First things first. Please understand where I am coming from, you only post the good ones, and remember, "those are the only photo's I took, you got them all", that's what you tell the client. PERIOD.
I did wedding photography for over 35 years, I selected the images to put in the proof book, if there was a bad expression, bad pose, I never included them for the client to see. Now remember, we took over 1500 images, and the group shots were taken 4 times, if all four were good, we included them, if not, we deleted them.
Remember this, YOU DON'T TAKE OUTTAKES." THERE FORE THE CLIENT CANNOT POSSIBLY GET ANY. UNDERSTAND. Good, now have a cup of tea and move on with life.

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Feb 14, 2021 10:40:46   #
Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
 
I've done a lot of forensic stuff... and I provide all photos to the client... type of exposure, out of focus, etc. I take them directly from my camera to my computer and burn a CD/DVD and sign it and give it over... nothing intermediary... and only I have control of the process.

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Feb 14, 2021 10:54:37   #
BebuLamar
 
rcarol wrote:
Probably by the missing numbers the camera assigns to the images. A way around the is to cull the images and renumber the remaining images.


I would renumber the frames but not for this reason. There is no requirement of 1 click, 1 picture. Oh I shot a lot but they are mostly blank did the contract say that I must produce a picture with every shutter release?

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Feb 14, 2021 10:57:27   #
Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
 
If I'm photographing objects at a failure, about 99% of my photos are OK... if an artistic shot, then even with care, about 1 in 3... I'm not a professional photographer... their results might be different like 1 out of 1.1 being good.

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Feb 14, 2021 11:09:26   #
Papa Joe Loc: Midwest U.S.
 
Hi Fotoman,
When I was 'commercial' I always decided which pictures the client would see. If I had (what I considered 'bad' photos), they never were EVER viewed by the client. I figured my photos 'spoke' for my ability and talent and I would not circulate 'bad' photos, that would speak 'bad' for my ability.
When your photos are identified as your work, they are a powerful means of advertisement so why display anything that's less then your standard?
That's just the premis I worked on as a professional photographer. I wanted to be represented favorably by my work, once it left my hands, to all who might view them.
God Bless,
Papa Joe

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Feb 14, 2021 11:11:39   #
Say Cheese Loc: Eastern PA
 
I once needed the back door on my Tahoe to be painted. I went to an auto painter with the best reputation. He would not just do the door because the rest of the Tahoe was not in the best of condition. He said if he could do the whole thing he would not do just the door. It would be a reflection of his work.
I have a friend that makes quality pottery and when he pulls the work out of the kiln, if it is not perfect it gets smashed and discarded. He only sells quality, no one sees his imperfections.
Why would anyone want to give poor quality anything to someone? It is a reflection on your work and not serve anyone.

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Feb 14, 2021 11:19:10   #
Dikdik Loc: Winnipeg, Canada
 
If I were a professional photographer, I would not release anything but the best photos... with forensics, it's a matter of having them available and there is a 'chain of evidence'. The report may include a dozen photos out of maybe 100. Engineering wise, I review a lot of welding fabrication for strength... one of my review comments always includes:

-VISIBLE STEEL SHALL BE FABRICATED AND INSTALLED IN ACCORDANCE WITH ARCHITECTURALLY EXPOSED STRUCTURAL STEEL STIPULATED IN [“CISC CODE OF STANDARD PRACTICE” | AISC “NEW CATEGORIZED APPROACH TO ARCHITECTURALLY EXPOSED STRUCTURAL STEEL”] TO LEVEL AESS 3.

for a higher quality finish I raise the level to AESS 4, or higher... the end product reflects on me.

Dik

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Feb 14, 2021 11:19:37   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
fotoman150 wrote:
For you pros, or anyone with an opinion.

Occasionally, I get a client that wants me to post all of the outtakes (bad pictures) on their Zenfolio site so they can see them and judge for themselves whether or not to keep them.

This happened with the last wedding. I told them that I usually don't show those because it ruins the overall impression of the gallery and sometimes people even get angry when I show them because they feel like they got bad pictures.

The groom said he had several apps that could correct the photos. I told him that is uncool and that if there is something that needed work I would have retouched them and posted them.

We went back and forth like this for awhile until I just gave in and posted the outtakes because I felt like it was going to get me a bad review if I didn't. He was like, "We paid for pictures that we're not getting."

I've had this problem off and on for years. What is your opinion? I'm thinking about putting it in my contract that the outtakes will not be available for viewing, downloading or printing.
For you pros, or anyone with an opinion. br br Oc... (show quote)


One of my first weddings was like this. Your contract is where you control this. After that wedding, limits of what the couple could and could not have was much better spelled out in the contract. Your written contract is where everything has to be spelled out. Without a contract or having it in writing, you are at the mercy of whatever the couple wants. Live and learn.

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Feb 14, 2021 11:34:16   #
Don, the 2nd son Loc: Crowded Florida
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Sorry, I wouldn't do this. Artistic integrity is at stake. I do not give clients my PSDs. Nor outtakes. They are not their property they are mine. I have my own set of reasons for this which are very sound and which I won't go into here. And others may have their own separate reasons but I will just stand on the principle I have stated.



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Feb 14, 2021 11:38:54   #
Don, the 2nd son Loc: Crowded Florida
 
luvmypets wrote:
Many years ago when I assisted a wedding photographer the only photos presented for consideration were those the photographer selected and the clients chose from those.

Consider that the best form of advertisement is word of mouth. If your client tells potential clients about the photos that you didn't do well it lowers your level as a professional; always present your best work. It is human nature to remember bad things over good. ( i.e. The beautiful decor and atmosphere of a restaurant will not be told of if the food was inedible.)

Best wishes for your future shoots.

Dodie
Many years ago when I assisted a wedding photograp... (show quote)


NAILED IT!!

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Feb 14, 2021 11:51:57   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
billnikon wrote:
First things first. Please understand where I am coming from, you only post the good ones, and remember, "those are the only photo's I took, you got them all", that's what you tell the client. PERIOD.
I did wedding photography for over 35 years, I selected the images to put in the proof book, if there was a bad expression, bad pose, I never included them for the client to see. Now remember, we took over 1500 images, and the group shots were taken 4 times, if all four were good, we included them, if not, we deleted them.
Remember this, YOU DON'T TAKE OUTTAKES." THERE FORE THE CLIENT CANNOT POSSIBLY GET ANY. UNDERSTAND. Good, now have a cup of tea and move on with life.
First things first. Please understand where I am c... (show quote)


I wouldn't feel right about lying to a client that there were no outtakes. Those who know much about photography would know it wasn't true. As many others have said, handle the issue in your contract.

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Feb 14, 2021 11:57:15   #
goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl
 
JohnSwanda wrote:
I wouldn't feel right about lying to a client that there were no outtakes. Those who know much about photography would know it wasn't true. As many others have said, handle the issue in your contract.

========================

Nailed It...

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Feb 14, 2021 12:04:10   #
Bigmike1 Loc: I am from Gaffney, S.C. but live in Utah.
 
On the weddings I have done I never even mentioned photos that weren't good in my opinion. When the proofs came back I removed the bad ones and destroyed them. Then there were no questions or demands. I haven't done anything since digital came in but if I did I would delete the bad ones so there would be no problems. If someone demanded the outtakes I would send them blank files. If they yelled I would tell them where to stick them. I wouldn't be doing business with them again anyway.

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Feb 14, 2021 12:07:35   #
Horseart Loc: Alabama
 
OK, put yourself in the client's shoes. If you saw all the bad images, along with the good ones, would you tell your friends that your photographer was a bad photographer, a good photographer or a great photographer? You already know the answer to that. If you promised them a certain number of pictures, then take waaaaay more than that so you can cull out the bad ones and never show them to anyone. Your reputation as a photographer hangs on what kind of pictures you take. The images belong to YOU until you sell them to your clients. Never let them know there are bad ones. It all comes down to what kind of reputation you want as a photographer.

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