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Image Quality from Flagship Cameras
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Jan 15, 2021 10:30:50   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Zeke4351 wrote:
The Nikon D700 is said to have an image quality difference from any other cameras so is that just bull?

Pretty much bull. There's going to be a visible difference in the JPEGs the cameras generate. The task of comparing those however is basically impossible. My APS-C Fuji camera has 9 different color film simulations that each generate a different looking JPEG. Add to those the controls like highlight tone, shadow tone, color chrome, D-Range, noise suppression, sharpness, etc. and the permutations run into the 10s of thousands -- some pretty subtle but they change the look of the image. So comparing camera JPEG output is a pretty futile exercise. If you like the JPEGs from a particular camera great, but I don't think we can say one specific brand and model has a magic sauce -- especially not a magic sauce connected to sensor specs.
Zeke4351 wrote:
Some of you have no idea what I said in my original post and that was expected. I don’t see any difference in the pictures someone posted. The pixel pitch seems to be making a lot of difference in image quality from my investigative interest. That and megapixel count of 20 or less.

Those are certainly factors to consider in a camera. You want a Nikon Z7 or a Z6? One has bigger pixels and one has more smaller pixels and that difference will have an effect on what you can accomplish with each camera but I think the difference is pretty much out on the edges of what matters -- extremes. The Z6's larger pixels will give it an edge in extreme low-light situations while the more smaller pixels will give the Z7 a resolution edge. But for less extreme situations where we're not pushing the edges (most of our photography) I don't think those differences are too important.

I'm going to go get some more coffee and I'll come back in a bit and tell all about those three photos.

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Jan 15, 2021 11:11:23   #
timoore Loc: Bordeaux, France
 
Ysarex wrote:
It's an interesting question. When you do a comparison you still know which camera created which image and it's always possible to be swayed by that knowledge. Here's some fun and everyone can play -- a truly blind test. I didn't move the tripod but the cameras all mounted a little higher or lower so there's minor variation. Should be close enough.

I don't want to give too much away but one of those cameras is a FF 20 megapixel camera similar to what you mention above. Maybe you can find what it is you're seeing in one of these photos and point it out to us. Or just sort the images to their price rank as in the cheaper cameras you mentioned. I won't say it's the FF 20 megapixel camera but one of those is a $6000.00 camera and the others not so much.

I'm curious if you see something that makes one of them stand out.
It's an interesting question. When you do a compar... (show quote)


#2 is in focus, at least the books and the can next to them are. The others are a bit off. Otherwise I can't see the difference.

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Jan 15, 2021 11:12:41   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
RWR wrote:
Do these look the same on my monitor as they do on yours?


My monitor is appropriately calibrated for photo processing using an X-Rite spectrophotometer. If your monitor is also calibrated they should look very much the same.

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Jan 15, 2021 11:15:22   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
Zeke4351 wrote:
This might have been discussed somewhere before but I can’t find it. I spend a lot of time looking at pictures taken with various lenses and cameras. I use Nikon but look at pictures made with anything. I think most will agree that different lenses render pictures different and some produce a quality of color, contrast and depth very different than others. Now for my observation about flagship camera images. From what I see there is a special quality with pictures that come from both Cannon and Nikon flagship cameras that is not matched with the cheaper larger sensor cameras. The best way I describe what I see is that the entire picture from foreground to background looks more like real life no matter the depth of field. These cameras seem to produce a picture look of a different quality than any of the other cameras. I first thought I was crazy but after looking at thousands of pictures I am convinced they are producing a very different image. Is this something everybody else already knew and I just noticed? Other cameras take beautiful pictures but to me have more of an artificial look to them. I am guessing there is more to pixel pitch and megapixel count than ever gets discussed. The flagships specs were maxed out years ago for lots of reasons it seems to me. I can look on Flickr and other places and pick out pictures taken with a flagship camera. I own a D500 and a D850 and they take wonderful pictures but I think there is more to the ridiculous price of those flagship cameras than just being fast and tough. They have image quality that is closer to reality of the the scene or image with color and contrast that is unique compared to all other pictures. Have I lost my mind or am I on to something that is new to me and never discussed?
This might have been discussed somewhere before bu... (show quote)


Seems like you have thought long and hard about it. But your personal evidence is purely anecdotal and far from being inclusive regarding what goes into producing the end product (image).

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Jan 15, 2021 11:17:32   #
Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb
 
Of the 3 pictures shown it seems #2 seems to have more overall sharpness, probably a higher f stop. But that's me.

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Jan 15, 2021 11:21:00   #
Photomac Loc: The Dalles, Or
 
No 3 for me as well. The initial observational comments are just that, observational. To conduct such a study, all the cameras need to be mounted on a tripod, taking the same image/lighting/lens(brand name prime)/blinded as to name of camera, and the photos studied by at least 20 similar observers in terms of photo experience, color skills, also blinded as to camera identification, with at least a strategy of criteria applied to each image evaluation. We call that a double blind study, the highest level of statistical evidence.

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Jan 15, 2021 11:24:40   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
Ysarex wrote:
It's an interesting question. When you do a comparison you still know which camera created which image and it's always possible to be swayed by that knowledge. Here's some fun and everyone can play -- a truly blind test. I didn't move the tripod but the cameras all mounted a little higher or lower so there's minor variation. Should be close enough.

I don't want to give too much away but one of those cameras is a FF 20 megapixel camera similar to what you mention above. Maybe you can find what it is you're seeing in one of these photos and point it out to us. Or just sort the images to their price rank as in the cheaper cameras you mentioned. I won't say it's the FF 20 megapixel camera but one of those is a $6000.00 camera and the others not so much.

I'm curious if you see something that makes one of them stand out.
It's an interesting question. When you do a compar... (show quote)


Actually the resolution of your shots isn't high enough to make a critical conclusion and that probably says enough regarding the main question as well.

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Jan 15, 2021 11:28:57   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Are these photographs you're viewing being presented as SOOC or are they processed. If they are processed, the work of the photographer is going to have a lot to do with the image you're viewing.
--Bob
Zeke4351 wrote:
This might have been discussed somewhere before but I can’t find it. I spend a lot of time looking at pictures taken with various lenses and cameras. I use Nikon but look at pictures made with anything. I think most will agree that different lenses render pictures different and some produce a quality of color, contrast and depth very different than others. Now for my observation about flagship camera images. From what I see there is a special quality with pictures that come from both Cannon and Nikon flagship cameras that is not matched with the cheaper larger sensor cameras. The best way I describe what I see is that the entire picture from foreground to background looks more like real life no matter the depth of field. These cameras seem to produce a picture look of a different quality than any of the other cameras. I first thought I was crazy but after looking at thousands of pictures I am convinced they are producing a very different image. Is this something everybody else already knew and I just noticed? Other cameras take beautiful pictures but to me have more of an artificial look to them. I am guessing there is more to pixel pitch and megapixel count than ever gets discussed. The flagships specs were maxed out years ago for lots of reasons it seems to me. I can look on Flickr and other places and pick out pictures taken with a flagship camera. I own a D500 and a D850 and they take wonderful pictures but I think there is more to the ridiculous price of those flagship cameras than just being fast and tough. They have image quality that is closer to reality of the the scene or image with color and contrast that is unique compared to all other pictures. Have I lost my mind or am I on to something that is new to me and never discussed?
This might have been discussed somewhere before bu... (show quote)

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Jan 15, 2021 11:32:31   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
SalvageDiver wrote:
The placebo effect is extremely strong on this forum.


Yep, you got it, but not just this forum. I think the difference that folks are seeing is primarily a function of an effect that we can express mathematically as 1/ego * $$$$$ + (red dot/red stripe/gold stripe). If you do comparisons and you're looking to see if there's a difference your odds of finding that difference will be directly tied to that formula. If you personally dropped $6000.00 on your camera and then got going with the serious $$$ for a collection of lenses what are the odds you're going to find that's the camera with the magic sauce.

They do generate different looking JPEGs and you can certainly have a preference for one brand's JPEGs over another. But that's primarily a difference in software. For hardware differences look first to lenses and don't worry too much about sensor tech variations. Those differences, for most of what we shoot aren't real big factors. If your photography is done out on the edge of say very low light or extreme high contrast light the sensor differences become more important.

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Jan 15, 2021 11:52:40   #
rlv567 Loc: Baguio City, Philippines
 
Ysarex wrote:
It's an interesting question. When you do a comparison you still know which camera created which image and it's always possible to be swayed by that knowledge. Here's some fun and everyone can play -- a truly blind test. I didn't move the tripod but the cameras all mounted a little higher or lower so there's minor variation. Should be close enough.

I don't want to give too much away but one of those cameras is a FF 20 megapixel camera similar to what you mention above. Maybe you can find what it is you're seeing in one of these photos and point it out to us. Or just sort the images to their price rank as in the cheaper cameras you mentioned. I won't say it's the FF 20 megapixel camera but one of those is a $6000.00 camera and the others not so much.

I'm curious if you see something that makes one of them stand out.
It's an interesting question. When you do a compar... (show quote)



At 125%, at the books - No. 2 is by FAR the sharpest, No. 3 is next and No. 1 is not as good. HOWEVER, at the front of the picture, No. 1 is a bit sharper than No. 3, then No. 2!; the pictures are in focus at different distances!!!

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City

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Jan 15, 2021 12:18:46   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
Ysarex wrote:
Are you referring to the camera image processor JPEGs the cameras produce or images processed from the camera's raw files?

Have you shot two cameras side by side -- same subject -- for a comparison? You probably need to do that.


With same lens.

Owners of premium cameras usually opt for premium lenses. It seems to me that is what the OP might be seeing.

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Jan 15, 2021 12:20:58   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
rlv567 wrote:
At 125%, at the books - No. 2 is by FAR the sharpest, No. 3 is next and No. 1 is not as good. HOWEVER, at the front of the picture, No. 1 is a bit sharper than No. 3, then No. 2!; the pictures are in focus at different distances!!!

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City


Sharpness is the defining quality characteristic? The focus point is pretty much the same for all three but there's a DOF difference and that's probably what you're seeing. Photo #2 is taken with a smaller sensor camera. I did use different f/stops to try and match up DOF between #2 and the other photos but #2 came out with enough additional DOF to make a difference. Focus is on the side of the red ceramic dish.

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Jan 15, 2021 12:27:17   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
Gasman57 wrote:
Doesn't post processing change everything? Once a photo is processed I'd bet my house that all camera and lens distinctions disappear.


All photos are processed so you can see them. The question is if it done using limited in-camera choices or external processing. Jpeg processing likely differs in cameras. Photographers have control over some of the in-camera Jpeg choices. Professional photographers are likely to make better choices related to their subjects.

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Jan 15, 2021 12:32:08   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
Considering the fact that one can adjust colors in post, I wonder if the color differences one sees are accomplished in post processing, not in the camera. When a fellow photographer who uses a Nikon wanted to compare the color between his camera and my Canon, I was immediately struck with thinking "We are comparing jpegs created by algorithms that we have full control over with camera settings". I don't know if he realized there were settings he could adjust for jpeg color to his liking. We control the color of the final output if we post process color/tint or even simply use the settings that adjust in-camera jpeg color/tint.

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Jan 15, 2021 12:32:45   #
rfahrens
 
I vote for #3

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