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The Simulation of the Dye-Transfer Process
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Nov 22, 2020 10:16:24   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Charles, that inspiration you mentioned is wanting to learn more is an incredible reward you provided. That in turn inspires me to exploration, as well. Thank you very much.
--Bob
cedymock wrote:
Though I don't have the appreciation of this process having never worked in a darkroom I am inspired by your constant love & devotion of development of the photograph. Your enthusiasm is spread by the determination you express and just makes me want to learn more.
Charles

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Nov 22, 2020 11:33:11   #
Leitz Loc: Solms
 
Simulation = imitation.

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Nov 22, 2020 11:34:53   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Your point is ????
--Bob
Leitz wrote:
Simulation = imitation.

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Nov 22, 2020 11:41:08   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
rmalarz wrote:
Your point is ????
--Bob

That was just another nay-sayer. We have lost a few over the years. From time to time one pops up.

According to the spirit of these guys we should learn nothing from anyone in the past. Living in caves would be imitating ancestors looking for refuge.

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Nov 22, 2020 12:44:13   #
rcarol
 
rmalarz wrote:
Thanks for checking this out and commenting, tainkc. Although I still work with film, I'm not going to attempt to do the actual dye-transfer process. It's laborious to say the least. However, once the blue filter arrives, I'm going to be using this with my 4x5 and hoping for similar results using a scanner and Ps.
--Bob


Not only is it laborious but the materials such as the matrix films are no longer produced by Kodak or any other manufacturer. It's a shame since the dye transfer process when properly done produces an image with a unique quality that cannot be duplicated by any other means. Many years ago when I taught classes emphasizing photography as an art form, I had the opportunity to buy a portfolio of Icelandic images produced by Eliot Porter. The portfolio consisted of 12 prints for $1200. I didn't buy it and I've been kicking my ass ever since.

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Nov 22, 2020 13:11:03   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
As you noted, it's laborious. However, not all that much. My capturing a 4x5 image by moving a sensor over the area of a 4x5 negative, then Lens Color Correcting each of 20+ images, then stitching them together is far more laborious. However, the results can be impressive. The need to do multiple exposures with either of these approaches limits the subject matter to things that are definitely stable and no wind. However, some of us find a good deal of fun in these adventures.

Eliot and William are tops in the artistic approach using dye-transfer.
--Bob
rcarol wrote:
Not only is it laborious but the materials such as the matrix films are no longer produced by Kodak or any other manufacturer. It's a shame since the dye transfer process when properly done produces an image with a unique quality that cannot be duplicated by any other means. Many years ago when I taught classes emphasizing photography as an art form, I had the opportunity to buy a portfolio of Icelandic images produced by Eliot Porter. The portfolio consisted of 12 prints for $1200. I didn't buy it and I've been kicking my ass ever since.
Not only is it laborious but the materials such as... (show quote)

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Nov 22, 2020 13:37:49   #
cbtsam Loc: Monkton, MD
 
A fascinating - and, to my eye, tedious - approach to staying out of trouble! ;-) I thought the shack image looked pretty good, but not much different than the SOOC, for whatever my opinion is worth. My question is this: after you've buried yourself in all the details, how do you think your images might improve? I recall enjoying Porter's work a great deal, and I had some idea that he did dye transfer work - though I really had no idea what that involved - but I don't recall his color quality being what grabbed me about his images. One image sticks out in my memory; it was a bunch of trees in the woods, one of which had particularly reddish leaves, and those leave really stood out in a way none of the trees in any of my images of the woods ever did, whether Kodachrome or Ektachrome or Fujichrome. Do you imagine he could control the dye transfer process in such a way that made that tree's color stand out markedly from the rest? And, if so, do you imagine that your method would give you any advantage over, say, selecting the leaves in PS and applying selective alterations?

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Nov 22, 2020 13:51:41   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
First off, this was more of a proof of concept than a final approach to doing digital work. Though it can be applied to digital, as shown here. The drover's shack in the "dye-transfer" image had some tonality that the original didn't, especially the tree leaves.

As I noted, this was a proof of concept step, led by a bit of impatience. The final filter I need to do this with film won't arrive until Tuesday. That's when the real attempt will be made. Three separate black and white negatives each exposed through the red, green, and blue filters, then scanned, then placed in the appropriate channels to produce a color image.

I saw an improvement with the canyon photograph as the colors of the walls were more true to life. The overall looked more like a Kodachrome image.

As to the advantage, yes, if it works definitely. I can then produce color photographs, when needed, from a medium format or 4x5 using black and white film.
--Bob
cbtsam wrote:
A fascinating - and, to my eye, tedious - approach to staying out of trouble! ;-) I thought the shack image looked pretty good, but not much different than the SOOC, for whatever my opinion is worth. My question is this: after you've buried yourself in all the details, how do you think your images might improve? I recall enjoying Porter's work a great deal, and I had some idea that he did dye transfer work - though I really had no idea what that involved - but I don't recall his color quality being what grabbed me about his images. One image sticks out in my memory; it was a bunch of trees in the woods, one of which had particularly reddish leaves, and those leave really stood out in a way none of the trees in any of my images of the woods ever did, whether Kodachrome or Ektachrome or Fujichrome. Do you imagine he could control the dye transfer process in such a way that made that tree's color stand out markedly from the rest? And, if so, do you imagine that your method would give you any advantage over, say, selecting the leaves in PS and applying selective alterations?
A fascinating - and, to my eye, tedious - approach... (show quote)

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Nov 22, 2020 15:54:23   #
Timmers Loc: San Antonio Texas.
 
rmalarz wrote:
My inspiration for this was born years ago upon seeing photographs by William Eggleston and Eliot Porter. They used the dye transfer process to produce stunning color photographs. The dye transfer process essentially takes three black and white photographs simultaneously using red, green, and blue filters. These negatives are then registered and combined to produce a color photograph.

My intent was to simulate that process through the use of Ps instead. I lacked a blue filter, it's on order and expected to arrive Nov. 24. So, as a proof of concept, I used photographs I'd taken with digital cameras. So, after researching the nuances of the Channels Layer it was time to give this a try. It would seem the secret to the process was not opening photographs in Ps but instead creating a photograph using the color channels instead.

I used minimal processing, entirely done in ACR to produce as close to a properly exposed photograph as I could. That "SOOC" photograph would be the basis for any further process related work.

I used a color to black and white conversion process that would produce a photograph as if it were taken through a colored filter. This conversion was done three times to simulate the use of the red, green, and blue filters. Instead of opening the photographs conventionally, I copied each to its respective color channel of a New photograph created in Ps. Thus producing a color image. The results are interesting enough to pursue this further.

I'm hoping for similar results when using film and filters. Stay tuned.
--Bob
My inspiration for this was born years ago upon se... (show quote)


The true dye transfer process requires four negatives, and five filters. The red exposure is used as the guide for negative number four, which is generated using the K-2 filter (medium yellow) and is UNDER EXPOSED by three stops from the Red filter Exposure (Wratten 25). This becomes the masking filter for the shadows so that the image will not appear dull or lacking in contrast in the shadows and lower values.

When making any exposure for photographic purposes one is advised to include the Wratten 2B (UV filter) to remove unwanted UV and lower end blue shift associated with the blue Wratten filter. If not the image will have a slight shift in the blue rendering.

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Nov 22, 2020 15:59:10   #
n46130
 
I visited a firm doing dye transfer back in the day and I was impressed with the handwork that was needed to adjust the transfer to assure perfect registration. The owner said that the process was becoming obsolete when he used up the last of the Dupont stock as they were not continuing the line. What you are doing sounds interesting. Good luck

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Nov 22, 2020 16:10:55   #
cbtsam Loc: Monkton, MD
 
rmalarz wrote:
First off, this was more of a proof of concept than a final approach to doing digital work. Though it can be applied to digital, as shown here. The drover's shack in the "dye-transfer" image had some tonality that the original didn't, especially the tree leaves.

As I noted, this was a proof of concept step, led by a bit of impatience. The final filter I need to do this with film won't arrive until Tuesday. That's when the real attempt will be made. Three separate black and white negatives each exposed through the red, green, and blue filters, then scanned, then placed in the appropriate channels to produce a color image.

I saw an improvement with the canyon photograph as the colors of the walls were more true to life. The overall looked more like a Kodachrome image.

As to the advantage, yes, if it works definitely. I can then produce color photographs, when needed, from a medium format or 4x5 using black and white film.
--Bob
First off, this was more of a proof of concept tha... (show quote)


Of course! Now I see your motivation. I don't imagine I need to say it, but I am looking forward to your sharing the results with the complete set of filters. And let me say Best of luck!

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Nov 22, 2020 16:26:12   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
I'll be sharing that, good or bad, as the exploration continues. Thank you.
--Bob
cbtsam wrote:
Of course! Now I see your motivation. I don't imagine I need to say it, but I am looking forward to your sharing the results with the complete set of filters. And let me say Best of luck!

Reply
Nov 22, 2020 17:06:03   #
richardsaccount
 
rmalarz wrote:
My inspiration for this was born years ago upon seeing photographs by William Eggleston and Eliot Porter. They used the dye transfer process to produce stunning color photographs. The dye transfer process essentially takes three black and white photographs simultaneously using red, green, and blue filters. These negatives are then registered and combined to produce a color photograph.

My intent was to simulate that process through the use of Ps instead. I lacked a blue filter, it's on order and expected to arrive Nov. 24. So, as a proof of concept, I used photographs I'd taken with digital cameras. So, after researching the nuances of the Channels Layer it was time to give this a try. It would seem the secret to the process was not opening photographs in Ps but instead creating a photograph using the color channels instead.

I used minimal processing, entirely done in ACR to produce as close to a properly exposed photograph as I could. That "SOOC" photograph would be the basis for any further process related work.

I used a color to black and white conversion process that would produce a photograph as if it were taken through a colored filter. This conversion was done three times to simulate the use of the red, green, and blue filters. Instead of opening the photographs conventionally, I copied each to its respective color channel of a New photograph created in Ps. Thus producing a color image. The results are interesting enough to pursue this further.

I'm hoping for similar results when using film and filters. Stay tuned.
--Bob
My inspiration for this was born years ago upon se... (show quote)


Bob,
Very nice results. The blue of the sky in the scenic shot reminds me of Kodachrome 25.

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Nov 22, 2020 17:12:42   #
Tom Moore Loc: Ojai, CA
 
I'm pretty sure the Eggleston and Porter pictures did not involve taking multiple shots, but rather making separation negatives from their color film (not sure if they were shooting negative or reversal film).

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Nov 22, 2020 18:10:14   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
Thanks, Richard. That was my first impression, as well.
—Bob
richardsaccount wrote:
Bob,
Very nice results. The blue of the sky in the scenic shot reminds me of Kodachrome 25.

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