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I've Had a Slight Change of Mind
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Oct 18, 2020 13:36:13   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
There are no rules for good photographs, great photographs have just one: the photoshop work is exquisite.


But what if they use Capture 1? Does that mean they can't be great?

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Oct 18, 2020 13:39:13   #
goldstar46 Loc: Tampa, Fl
 
russraman wrote:
Would Rembrandt have used a “paint-by-numbers” paint set? How would that have worked out?

-------------------
Ha, Ha, Why NOT...... LOL

Cheers
GeoVz
####

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Oct 18, 2020 13:39:20   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
srt101fan wrote:
Can we turn this whole question around, accept processed/manipulated photos as the new default, and demand that SOOC photographers disclose that they have not processed/manipulated their photos? 😕


You can do that.

FYI, I use the term SOOC when sharing images that have not been retouched. I will say "retouched using software_name" , if the images have been manipulated or if pixels have been added or removed.

I always assume an image has been retouched unless stated otherwise or unless it's a press photo. But even press photos are suspect these days.

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Oct 18, 2020 13:46:49   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
There are three responses to a great image: yes, no, or they must have used PhotoShop.

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Oct 18, 2020 14:16:11   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
JD750, green screening/blue screening is a different animal altogether and not what I was referencing. I'm discussing the concept of a self-proclaimed photographer replacing a sky, for example, and taking the approach of "look at the photo I took".

I'm not discussing the merits of standard photograph procedures such and dodging and burning, etc. I'm discussing the person who relies upon, in some cases, canned images AI'd into a snapshot.
--Bob
JD750 wrote:
Hi Bob sorry the late reply wow already 6 pages!

Replacing backgrounds is common in the film and TV industry where the actors perform in front of a green screen and the background is added later. A common use in TV is the weather woman standing in front of a big map. That map is not there when it’s recorded.

Funny aside my buddy told me they were using a blue screen one day the actress showed up in a blue dress.

Somebody had to tell her she needed to change the dress. She became angry 😡 didn’t want to do it. I guess there was a big scene. Ultimately she changed her dress.

Anyway it has been a common thing for quite a while. So that technology has been evolving and it’s available for purchase by the masses.

Is it good or bad? I say it depends on how it’s used.

Does a calculator make a student less proficient at math or enable greater things? The answer depends on the student.

So this leads to the bigger question since digital images require processing are computer and graphic arts skills part of the art? If so then the definition of “photographer” just got a lot wider. If not then tools to save time are acceptable.

Myself I’m not planning to run off and buy AI software to change sky’s. But for those who do that’s fine, it stimulates the economy and maybe some people will have some fun.

Now if there was something to change the background around a models hair....I might be interested. 😅

I am open to things that save me time behind the computer so I can spend more time as the nut behind the lens.
Hi Bob sorry the late reply wow already 6 pages! ... (show quote)

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Oct 18, 2020 14:55:53   #
sploppert Loc: Rochester, NY
 
rmalarz wrote:
One of our members, Steve R, posited that technique has disappeared. He was referring to the discussions involving technique. It seems that the technique has been replaced with which camera and software will provide one with the satisfaction of creating a notable photograph. I've observed that trend myself but not really given much thought to that occurrence. Most notably, I've been opposed to Luminar's claim to fame of replacing skies, etc.

Up until recently, I was completely opposed to substituting incredible skies into a landscape photograph, etc. I prefer to capture what's there. If what I want isn't there, I'm not disingenuous to 'fake' it. I liken it to say one is going fishing and upon not catching anything, going to a fresh fish store, and purchasing a large fish to return home and announce oneself as a great fisherman to have brought this wonderful dinner home.

Well, I've had a change of heart. I can see where there is a good cause for substituting skies, or any other background, in a photograph. This change was due to viewing a commercial photographer's work. The subject was shot in a studio and then an incredible and related background was placed in the photograph.

In this photographer's case, these are commercial photographs. They are done for pay, a sizable payment to say the least, and done with a time limit. They would be impossible to accomplish with the deadline given, people's schedules, etc. To say nothing of having nature cooperate with the ideal weather for a backdrop. So, in these cases, it is quite acceptable to produce a product photograph as quickly as possible.

Now, to the average person who wants to be a photographer. There is the knowledge that is needed to produce a successful and pleasing photograph. Today's cameras and associated software remove a great deal of the burden of photographic knowledge and simply reduce a good many to being merely camera operators. Ask yourself, if you didn't take that path, or continue to look for that path. It comes down to whether you wish to be a photographer or a mere button pusher. The choice is yours.

You can't purchase talent. You can, anyone can develop talent if they are willing to invest in learning the necessary skills as a foundation and then continuing to build on those skills. The results will be far more satisfying than just mastering which button to push. Kodak used to have an advertising expression, "You push the button. We do the rest". If photography and photographic art were that simple, why didn't the notable photographers resort to letting Kodak do the rest?

So, it comes down to whether you want to be a photographer or just a button pusher? One will produce photographs. The other will be entangled in a constant search for the "next best thing" that will propel them to the heights of photographic accomplishments they couldn't achieve on their own.
--Bob
One of our members, Steve R, posited that techniqu... (show quote)


this is true but on the other hand if you want to become a master photographer you are not allowed any such trickery and you will be judged by 5 master photographers at your expense. you must win 5 awards from the PPofA and each entry will cost you $125.00 each.

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Oct 18, 2020 15:02:15   #
Dan Ausec
 
goldstar46 wrote:
Now, to the

So, it comes down to whether you want to be a photographer or just a button pusher? One will produce photographs. The other will be entangled in a constant search for the "next best thing" that will propel them to the heights of photographic accomplishments they couldn't achieve on their own.
--Bob

---------------------------‐------

Very well said Bob.

I fully agree with your philosophy in that it has come to the point where you have individuals who have talent and you have individuals who push a button and wish they had talent.

Many times, I see photographs on Facebook, and on different sites and the presenters of these photographs, and you know they have been created in something like Photoshop or Luminar, and they are posted without explanations.... just to get their.... ooohs and ahs with accolades of how wonderful their photograph is... And what a talented person they are.......

As you indicated, it is a substitution of pushing a button in place of someone having talent but, the individual is willing to accept the accolades as if they did have talent, and that they have true skills in the art of photography... That is just what irks the heck out of me...

In reality, it is not talent as a photographer but, it is actually talent in the ability to use the software and push the right buttons to make people think you captured a unique moment in time, when they, actually in fact, actually created "a fantasy" of something NOT in time....

Yes, the "Preception" of photography has changed....

I do agree, that in the commercial arena, there are times when software and different types of created tivity are necessary to produce financial results.

But, what I dislike is the fact that people are willing to take praise and accolades based upon fake talents and pushing buttons..

Many years ago, I used to be in the diamond jewelry business. And as a merchant, you would never ever sell or present an Altered diamond to a customer without full disclosure. That would have been fraudulent and a complete improper business practice.

In the same light, it would be unthinkable today in the art world to present a fake piece of art as if it was real and expect your client to pay full retail price. Again this is fraudulent and it would be a complete improper business practice. Not to mention the fact app, in the art world you might go to jail...

But in the amateur and uncommercial world of "Photography", it is normal, fair game for anyone to create their fake, false, graphic images and it's OK for somebody to let individuals believe that they are truelly, unique, splendid, moments in time that have been captured by a "Talented Photographer" when that is not the case.

OK,,,, I will get off my soapbox. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and if they want to be a button pusher, they have that right to do that.

You but, that is the way I see it.....

Cheers
GeoVz
####[/quote]


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Oct 18, 2020 15:10:50   #
traderjohn Loc: New York City
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Those who push the buttons may or may not take their hobby further. Hopefully, those who develop (😁) an interest to explore photography as personal expression and art will find a mentor to guide and inspire them.

Those who would rigidly define "photographer" per their personal, life-long experience may not make the best mentors for younger generations.

"may not make the best mentors for younger generations"
Is there a measure of as you say the younger generation vs. the actual purchase of DSLR equipment? What is younger? Based on this site, I would think 50-60 years old. I rarely see young, by that I mean 20-35 years old male or female using DSLR's. Cell phones are another story. That probably correlates to sales being flat or retracted for the DSLR industry.

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Oct 18, 2020 15:18:03   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
Rongnongno wrote:
Let me disagree with you.

You are a master of taking good originals and a master of post processing.

You did not have a change of heart, you just opened more possibilities to you and those who follow you.


I like this interpretation. It depends on the final goal.

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Oct 18, 2020 15:28:09   #
ksmmike
 
goldstar46 wrote:
---------------------------------

But, Mike........ Ansel Adams 'Told' you what he was doing
............. Ansel Adams did NOT fake it


Cheers
GeoVz
####


I agree. I'm with you that people should tell if they are adding skies ect. I was only saying that with technology its hard to deny others from wanting to use it. If I blend an image for more dynamic range or even change the flow in the water using images taken a few seconds apart, I'll always tell.

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Oct 18, 2020 15:33:43   #
JRiepe Loc: Southern Illinois
 
The master photographer who has spent years at the top of his game mastering all there is to know about photography is suddenly crying and upset because others are duplicating his skills with much less knowledge and doing it using technology they're not comfortable using. Life just isn't fair but technology moves on. Be big boys and suck it up.

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Oct 18, 2020 15:38:45   #
aellman Loc: Boston MA
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Those who push the buttons may or may not take their hobby further. Hopefully, those who develop (😁) an interest to explore photography as personal expression and art will find a mentor to guide and inspire them.

Those who would rigidly define "photographer" per their personal, life-long experience may not make the best mentors for younger generations.



Anyone can define photographer any way they choose. I make my best effort to have what comes out of the camera to be 90% complete. In the photo shown, the only tweak I made was to level the horizon by 2 degrees. I'm not suggesting my technique is applicable to anyone else.

Family posed for me at Horseneck Beach. Westport MA. Sept 27, 2020. iPhone 6s.


(Download)

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Oct 18, 2020 15:38:46   #
JohnSwanda Loc: San Francisco
 
JD750 wrote:
There is a grey area here followed by a slippery slope. John I believe that goldstsr46 covered that as follows:
“In reality, a lie continues when one someone allows facts to go forward without full disclosure of all of the information. Giving someone half the truth, without presenting all the facts, is the same as LIE.“.

Just because many people do it that does not change what it is.


Posting or showing a photo without comment is not lying. If the viewer assumes that it must be a straight photo, they are under a false assumption. I have yet to see a photo exhibit with little cards explaining how the photos were made.

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Oct 18, 2020 15:41:57   #
JD750 Loc: SoCal
 
rmalarz wrote:
JD750, green screening/blue screening is a different animal altogether and not what I was referencing. I'm discussing the concept of a self-proclaimed photographer replacing a sky, for example, and taking the approach of "look at the photo I took".

I'm not discussing the merits of standard photograph procedures such and dodging and burning, etc. I'm discussing the person who relies upon, in some cases, canned images AI'd into a snapshot.
--Bob


Hmmm. Ok. Sorry I thought he took the shot in his studio then replaced the background with sky.

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Oct 18, 2020 15:46:24   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
The background in the studio could have been a green screen, or a blank wall. The main intent of the studio photograph was the lighting of the person that would be the photograph. The background was something, more than likely, associated with the subject. If a athlete, a stadium of some sort, etc.
--Bob
JD750 wrote:
Hmmm. Ok. Sorry I thought he took the shot in his studio then replaced the background with sky.

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