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Something I Learned About Blinkies
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Aug 17, 2020 10:44:57   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
Pushing exposure to the right is another so called maxim that needs to be revised over time.

I am not a proponent of pushing exposure to the right. The exposure problems that cause me to trash files are overexposures not Under exposures. Pushing exposure to the right was promulgated by Tim Grey among others many years ago when everyone's sensors were noisy. This was a technique to ameliorate that.

That's not the case now with excellent sensors and Noise Reduction programs and the amazing ability to rescue an underexposed file (not the case with an overexposed one).

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Aug 17, 2020 10:55:03   #
cactuspic Loc: Dallas, TX
 
bleirer wrote:
That is interesting. On my RP in the focus stack menu there is a Check box to automatically do exposure smoothing, but it instructs me to uncheck it for certain lenses.


Fascinating. There is another related problem with exposure and focus stacking. As you proceed from near to far in you focus, the size of the elements changes. Depending upon your metering mode, you may be metering different portions of the scene in your first and last shot if you are in an auto exposure setting.

I am anxious to get my new, on order camera that automatically focus stacks, to see how the process works. As someone who started stacking seriously in 2006, I find the progress amazing.

Irwin

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Aug 17, 2020 11:02:26   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Pushing exposure to the right is another so called maxim that needs to be revised over time.

I am not a proponent of pushing exposure to the right. The exposure problems that cause me to trash files are overexposures not Under exposures. Pushing exposure to the right was promulgated by Tim Grey among others many years ago when everyone's sensors were noisy. This was a technique to ameliorate that. ....

I agree totally. At low ISO modern cameras have so much DR and so little noise that the concept has become a relic of the past where 12-bit low DR sensors were common.

People who try to squeeze the last little bit out of an image's highlights are only fooling themselves. It is virtually impossible today to see a difference in noise from only one stop of additional exposure. And if you demonstrate it to them the ETTR proponents become defensive - they go into denial and start seeing spots before their eyes.

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Aug 17, 2020 11:22:42   #
a6k Loc: Detroit & Sanibel
 
selmslie wrote:
I agree totally. At low ISO modern cameras have so much DR and so little noise that the concept has become a relic of the past where 12-bit low DR sensors were common.

People who try to squeeze the last little bit out of an images highlights are only fooling themselves. It is virtually impossible today to see a difference in noise from only one stop of additional exposure. And if you demonstrate it to them the ETTR proponents become defensive - they go into denial and start seeing spots before their eyes.
I agree totally. At low ISO modern cameras have s... (show quote)


👍👍

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Aug 17, 2020 12:14:35   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
bleirer wrote:
I saw a Steve Perry video about avoiding overexposure using blinkies. In the video he demonstrated that they only flash when at least two color channels are blown, not when only one is. This is usually not a problem, but for things like red flowers or sunsets, red might be the only important color and if you rely upon blinkies you can get weird results.

Also he showed how the white balance setting impacts blinkies, possibly giving a false reading if shooting raw.

Your experience with this?
I saw a Steve Perry video about avoiding overexpos... (show quote)


It is probably brand/model-specific. If I recall correctly, Steve uses Nikon gear. So what he says in the video might be correct for that, but I'd be cautious about applying the same thinking to other brands or possibly even other models within the same brand. Each manufacturer has their own way of doing things and some even vary it depending upon the model... perhaps tailoring them to appeal to more or less experienced users.

It's like the "Expose To The Right" theory. That works well with some brands and models, but isn't universally advisable to use with all cameras. (I agree with some previous responses... ETTR has also become "less necessary", as cameras have improved over the years and now most are using sensors with relatively wide dynamic range.)

I would make my own judgments about "blinkies", based upon the specific gear I use. In fact, I don't use blinkies at all. I instead look to the histogram for feedback. And, based upon experience with that tool's feedback, I know that the Canon cameras I use are a bit more tolerant of overexposure than it would appear. For whatever reason, the techs at Canon appear to have programmed the cameras "conservatively".... with extra caution toward "protecting" highlights from overexposure. I know from experience with the specific camera models I use that they don't blow out highlights as easily as a simple reading of the histogram would have you believe (probably the same with relying upon the blinkies... though I haven't tested it).

Another "factor".... depending upon what you're photographing: MANY scenes have pure white in them.... it might be in cloud formations or reflections off water or a windshield or a car that's painted white or parts of a brides gown or some portions of the petals of a flower or something else entirely. Those ACTUAL pure white areas within the scene will always "set off" the blinkies and cause the histogram to "pile up" on the righthand side. When there's pure white in the scene, that's as it should be. It's not an indication of overexposure at all. In fact, I see an awful lot of badly underexposed images where the photographer appears to have tried to completely avoid blinkies or tried to keep the histogram from touching the righthand side of the display.

This is compounded by people using uncalibrated computer monitors to view and edit their images. MOST (all?) computer monitors tend to be significantly overly bright for photo editing, when used straight out of the box uncalibrated. This causes people to make their finished images to dark, without realizing it. It's next to impossible to judge how you're handling exposure, blinkies, the histogram etc. with an uncalibrated computer monitor. You're almost guaranteed to incorrectly adjust the brightness of your image and may not be aware of it unless and until you make a print of the image, which will appear too dark, with "muddy" colors.

Use blinkies if you wish... by all means. They can be a handy tool. Just do so cautiously and don't assume they act the same way universally across all brands and models of cameras. (I'd wager they don't.) Do some careful testing of your own particular camera. Also look at the shots you're setting up and notice actual pure white areas that will set off "false blinkies". ("Falsies"? No, those are something else. )

And if this sort of thing is important enough to you that you're seeking out videos and information, you are probably a candidate for monitor calibration, if not already doing so.

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Aug 17, 2020 12:29:22   #
bleirer
 
amfoto1 wrote:
It is probably brand/model-specific. If I recall correctly, Steve uses Nikon gear. So what he says in the video might be correct for that, but I'd be cautious about applying the same thinking to other brands or possibly even other models within the same brand. Each manufacturer has their own way of doing things and some even vary it depending upon the model... perhaps tailoring them to appeal to more or less experienced users.

It's like the "Expose To The Right" theory. That works well with some brands and models, but isn't universally advisable to use with all cameras. (I agree with some previous responses... ETTR has also become "less necessary", as cameras have improved over the years and now most are using sensors with relatively wide dynamic range.)

I would make my own judgments about "blinkies", based upon the specific gear I use. In fact, I don't use blinkies at all. I instead look to the histogram for feedback. And, based upon experience with that tool's feedback, I know that the Canon cameras I use are a bit more tolerant of overexposure than it would appear. For whatever reason, the techs at Canon appear to have programmed the cameras "conservatively".... with extra caution toward "protecting" highlights from overexposure. I know from experience with the specific camera models I use that they don't blow out highlights as easily as a simple reading of the histogram would have you believe (probably the same with relying upon the blinkies... though I haven't tested it).

Another "factor".... depending upon what you're photographing: MANY scenes have pure white in them.... it might be in cloud formations or reflections off water or a windshield or a car that's painted white or parts of a brides gown or some portions of the petals of a flower or something else entirely. Those ACTUAL pure white areas within the scene will always "set off" the blinkies and cause the histogram to "pile up" on the righthand side. When there's pure white in the scene, that's as it should be. It's not an indication of overexposure at all. In fact, I see an awful lot of badly underexposed images where the photographer appears to have tried to completely avoid blinkies or tried to keep the histogram from touching the righthand side of the display.

This is compounded by people using uncalibrated computer monitors to view and edit their images. MOST (all?) computer monitors tend to be significantly overly bright for photo editing, when used straight out of the box uncalibrated. This causes people to make their finished images to dark, without realizing it. It's next to impossible to judge how you're handling exposure, blinkies, the histogram etc. with an uncalibrated computer monitor. You're almost guaranteed to incorrectly adjust the brightness of your image and may not be aware of it unless and until you make a print of the image, which will appear too dark, with "muddy" colors.

Use blinkies if you wish... by all means. They can be a handy tool. Just do so cautiously and don't assume they act the same way universally across all brands and models of cameras. (I'd wager they don't.) Do some careful testing of your own particular camera. Also look at the shots you're setting up and notice actual pure white areas that will set off "false blinkies". ("Falsies"? No, those are something else. )

And if this sort of thing is important enough to you that you're seeking out videos and information, you are probably a candidate for monitor calibration, if not already doing so.
It is probably brand/model-specific. If I recall c... (show quote)


Interesting. My main takeaway is that things with a dominant color, red flowers for example, or sunsets, can have one blown color and you wouldn't know it by the blinkies. Compounding the problem is that Lightroom tries to rescue those pixels by extrapolation, possibly resulting in unintended colors and strange looking flowers.

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Aug 17, 2020 14:33:21   #
Kreb's Cyclist
 
bleirer wrote:
I saw a Steve Perry video about avoiding overexposure using blinkies. In the video he demonstrated that they only flash when at least two color channels are blown, not when only one is. This is usually not a problem, but for things like red flowers or sunsets, red might be the only important color and if you rely upon blinkies you can get weird results.

Also he showed how the white balance setting impacts blinkies, possibly giving a false reading if shooting raw.

Your experience with this?
I saw a Steve Perry video about avoiding overexpos... (show quote)


Just *minutes* ago I got out of a workshop discussion with John Gerlach. He said that yes, for Canon, at least two color channels have to be blown out for blinkies to appear. I was taking photos of red lillies a couple of weeks ago and my red channel was mountain climbing but I wasn't getting any blinkies so he explained why. He said you have to be careful relying on blinkies when your subject is very strong in one color.

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Aug 17, 2020 17:02:49   #
bleirer
 
Kreb's Cyclist wrote:
Just *minutes* ago I got out of a workshop discussion with John Gerlach. He said that yes, for Canon, at least two color channels have to be blown out for blinkies to appear. I was taking photos of red lillies a couple of weeks ago and my red channel was mountain climbing but I wasn't getting any blinkies so he explained why. He said you have to be careful relying on blinkies when your subject is very strong in one color.


Good to get confirmation. Plus, as I just discovered, the same pixel needs two colors blown, not red blown here and green blown somewhere else.

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Aug 17, 2020 17:17:02   #
Ralanco19
 
Steve Perry’s 2-channels overexposure before the LCD shows blinkies applied to his Nikons. I suspect each camera brand (maybe even models?) may be a little different in sensitivities.

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Aug 17, 2020 17:54:38   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Ralanco19 wrote:
Steve Perry’s 2-channels overexposure before the LCD shows blinkies applied to his Nikons. I suspect each camera brand (maybe even models?) may be a little different in sensitivities.

This is all complex enough to give anyone an aversion to blowing JPEG pixels and triggering highlights at all.

Fortunately for raw shooting we have RawDigger to explain it all and help keep us out of trouble.

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