Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
Once again…The Mask!
Page <<first <prev 9 of 14 next> last>>
 
Note: posting politics outside of the Attic is against UHH rules. Users that bring politics into this discussion will have their accounts banned from replying in this topic. Repeated violations will lead to account suspension.
 
Jul 17, 2020 23:53:50   #
machia Loc: NJ
 
hj wrote:
Do you not understand the concept of "Leave politics out of the discussion?"

72 is the new 62!
Live your life and be happy!
All kidding aside, 72 isn’t 92.
Stay safe😃

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 23:56:28   #
machia Loc: NJ
 
Salomj9850 wrote:
I couldn't have put it better. We need to remember that Covid 19 isn't a Democratic or Republican issue. It's a world problem. We need to pull together or things will get much worse.

We need to pull together on EVERYTHING.
However it’s becoming very apparent that Leftist professors have done their jobs well in the past 50 years.

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 04:38:48   #
cmc4214 Loc: S.W. Pennsylvania
 
machia wrote:
It will disappear, like it did in the protests, 2021 isn’t an election year.
It will still be out there, but the media will refocus their efforts and this virus will be put into perspective by science and actual data. It’s a very serious virus, but politics has confused a nation.
Have a great day. Stay healthy.



Reply
 
 
Jul 18, 2020 05:37:00   #
cmc4214 Loc: S.W. Pennsylvania
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Right! Everyone should be injected with the virus. Let natural selection sort them out. Only the strong will survive, and we will have a better population. I think the White House considered this, but they couldn't get enough syringes and Covid doses produced, so they gave up on it.


I did not intend to offend anyone, I simply made a true statement, I did not tell anyone not not wear a mask, (I wear mine anywhere that asks me to) and I certainly did not suggest that anyone be injected with the virus.
In anything there needs to be a balance, and I think at this point we are on the verge of going too far

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 06:30:50   #
DocDav Loc: IN
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Yeh, science from Bill Nye the science guy.


no, science:

WHO, CDC, New England Journal of Medicine, USA Today, NPR, Lancet. As well as a service that feeds my in box with current research articles.

Everyone above is Valid, and has no political Axe to grind. Some have been wrong at times but science is a process not a look at a problem for 2 days and have an answer.

And actually, now that you mention it, Bill Nye did a great video on masks.

So, while exhibiting a wonderful example of the Dunning -Krueger effect, go read some truly valid medical journals. They are available on line to some extent.

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 07:41:51   #
cmc4214 Loc: S.W. Pennsylvania
 
cmc4214 wrote:
I did not intend to offend anyone, I simply made a true statement, I did not tell anyone not not wear a mask, (I wear mine anywhere that asks me to) and I certainly did not suggest that anyone be injected with the virus.
In anything there needs to be a balance, and I think at this point we are on the verge of going too far


To clarify what I mean by balance: The length of this epidemic VS. the severity of it. Which will save more people?

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 08:10:51   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
Ditto: "The unknown flavored with political division is a tough recipe."

Further, we cannot as a nation divorce the impact of a deadly pandemic from its political context. Consider, for example, that the U.S. Congress, a powerful political body, has addressed the need for funding to fight the virus, using borrowed monies at $3 trillion.

This political decision has sides to it reaching the entire nation. The grab for a share of this colossal amount of money may color political decisions at the local level regardless of the effectiveness of the face mask program. The President, the most powerful political figure on Earth, has offered his opinion of the value of face masks.

All this said, we citizens may sort out the wheat from the chaff (political talk) and understand the necessity of wearing a face mask when appearing in public.
DaveO wrote:
The pandemic seems to be intensifying many discussions. The unknown flavored with political division is a tough recipe.

Reply
 
 
Jul 18, 2020 08:13:44   #
David Martin Loc: Cary, NC
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Here is another question that maybe the experts here can answer for me. What is the most common infection entry point into the body for this virus? Is it from breathing air and aerosols or self-touching one's face with contaminated hands?

The eyes, the nose and the mouth are the portals of entry for the virus.
It is unlikely anyone has performed a controlled study on inhalation vs. self-touching as the means of acquiring the virus.
I would guess that inhalation of virus exhaled by a nearby person occurs much more often than self-touching.

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 08:19:19   #
Earnest Botello Loc: Hockley, Texas
 
sumo wrote:
never looked at it that way...maybe you're right....would imagine all the leftist on here hoping he is right

thought this was funny....if I can get it attached


Very funny clip, Sumo, thanks for my morning laugh.

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 08:50:05   #
srt101fan
 
PhotogHobbyist wrote:
As with any bacteria, fungus or virus, the path of least resistance is the most common route of infection. In this disease that could be several routes, oral or nasal inhalation. Even the eyes could be a route of infection since tears drain into the nasal passages, though that has not been considered a likely one except in maybe one particular case.

Masks can decrease the exhalation of the virus from an infected person or a carrier. It also can conceivably decrease the passage of the virus from the air inhaled.
As with any bacteria, fungus or virus, the path of... (show quote)


Good contribution. But why the apparent doubts regarding protection to the mask wearer? As I said in #4 of my opening post, I believe it is significant. Health care providers rely on them for self-protection. Can you please elaborate?

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 09:19:32   #
DocDav Loc: IN
 
srt101fan wrote:
Good contribution. But why the apparent doubts regarding protection to the mask wearer? As I said in #4 of my opening post, I believe it is significant. Health care providers rely on them for self-protection. Can you please elaborate?


I am a podiatrist. I do surgery. I treat infected wounds.

We don't wear a mask in surgery to protect our self. We wear it to protect the patient. That would be a regular surgical tie over the head mask quite similar to the over the ear mask most people have ( the blue or pink ones).

The mask protects us a "bit" but it is significant. It protect the patient from us, the staff and docs, a whole lot.

During infected processes if potentially air borne ( not my specialty) we wear the N95 mask. Often with a regular surgical mask on top of that. A real N95 is fit tested. That mask, the N95, is actually a respirator. It is tight. It hurts. It leaves marks and later bruises and is potentially dangerous for someone with say, severe COPD. In public, a paper over the ear or a fabric mask ( constructed well and properly) is protecting you the wearer a tad, but better than nothing, and the person next to you, significantly. So, if we all wore one we could get the R0 - reproduction rate of SARS-CoV-2 down below one. Meaning each infected person then infects less than one and the curse starts to go down.

Often in the hospital those in the Covid ICU will wear a PAPR , a positive pressure airway helmet. Air is filtered by a unit on your waiste or back and flows under positive pressure around your face and out the bottom of the hood.

Moral of the story? Wear a mask. No violation of your rights. No Civil right violation. In my office if you decline after being asked, you are politely pointed to the door. For a paper or cloth mask, there are exemptions, but medically they are very, very few in number. Inconvenient yep. Nasty hot breath - yep. Safe- yep. End of story about masks.

Oh as a PS. They don't breed bacteria, they don't cause infections (keep them clean and rotate them), they don't stop O2 from getting in, they don't cause a build up of CO2, OSHA did never suggest other wise and all the other excuses I hear. I even read one woman felt she was exempt because her gynecological exam was abnormal ( last I took anatomy that "thang" does not breath - don't think that has changed much) and her chiropractor told her they were dangerous. They aren't dangerous and the chiropractor is catering to her and probably charging her. As a podiatrist I have been asked to write exemptions. Feet don't breath either so no. I don't.

Reply
 
 
Jul 18, 2020 09:26:23   #
paulrph1 Loc: Washington, Utah
 
srt101fan wrote:
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional discussion of the issue of masking? I’d like to think so and want to give it a try. By way of background, I’ve been called a “Constitutional Conservative” by friends; I consider myself an independent, espousing a liberal or conservative view depending on the issue. In other words, my thinking and judgment is issue-based and, hopefully, always independent of political bias.

I have firm beliefs concerning the masking issue but I fully recognize that there are other, to me perhaps incomprehensible, points of view. I would like to understand these better. Please help me do that with thoughtful, civil and unemotional responses to my positions.

#1 – Covid-19 is a very large and nasty threat to our personal and national health and welfare: Yes, it is a bigger threat to older folks and those with preexisting health issues but it attacks all ages. It is much worse than the common flu. It makes no sense to downplay the magnitude of the problem. So the first step to an effective national response is for all of us to agree that this is a very serious problem. Some people get hung up on what they consider false statistics, how deaths are categorized, how testing results are published, etc. Can we stop this sideshow, folks, and agree that we’ve got a helluva problem and that we all need to contribute to the solution?

#2 – Mask effectiveness: Some argue that masks are ineffective in filtering out viruses and are therefore useless. Generally true that they can’t trap single, individual virus particles. But the virus isn’t dispersed that way. The biggest threat is viruses attached to droplets of fluids expelled in an infected person’s breath, sneeze or cough. True, recent findings suggest the viruses may also travel in aerosol “clouds” that could be airborne for some time (an aerosol can be loosely defined as a cloud of small particles or droplets whose travel is influenced more by air movement than by gravity). But threat aerosol droplets/particles are still bigger than individual viruses. And speaking of individual viruses, the “viral load” (or viral "dose") is a factor in that it determines the severity of the illness. So, do masks offer perfect protection? No. Do they reduce the risk? Absolutely....

#3 – Masks reduce the probability of an infected person infecting others: This one would seem to be tough to argue against. We know that face coverings can stop droplets expelled with breath air, sneezing and coughing. Many infected people have no symptoms and don’t know they are carriers. Doesn’t it make sense to sacrifice a little of your personal freedom and put up with a little discomfort in order to further the safety of others, including your families and friends? What would be your reasons for not doing it?

#4 – Self-protection - masks reduce the probability of you getting infected: Much has been made of the value of face coverings in reducing the dispersion of coronavirus by infected persons. Not much has been said of the protection against coronavirus provided to the individuals wearing the mask. I’ve seen this denied or downplayed. I don’t understand why. The filtration material works the same way, whether the air stream is going one way or the other. Granted, the dynamics of the filter challenge are different. In preventing the spread of coronavirus by an infected person we are trying to stop the droplets at the source. When considering the self-protection aspect of wearing a mask we may be faced with a somewhat different filter challenge in that our physical position relative to the airborne threat, as well as the size of the droplets, may be different. Mask construction and fit are also issues. But masks will reduce the risk of infection to the wearer. How much? There are too many variables to allow accurate assessment. But for me, even a slight risk reduction (and I believe it is significantly more than “slight”) is worth putting up with the downsides. Isn’t it for you?

#5 – Positive effect of mask-wearing on businesses: We all lament the terrible effect coronavirus has had on small businesses and the economy in general. Nobody wants to see local stores and businesses shut down. I believe that businesses would be helped if everyone wore a mask and acted prudently when in public. Mask-wearing would reduce the overall spread of the virus thus moving faster towards relaxation of closures. But it also could have another positive effect. Many people are reluctant to go anywhere because of fear of infection. With everyone wearing masks there would be less fear and more willingness to support business establishments. Isn't this a positive effect of wearing masks in public?

#6 – “It’s an infringement on my rights”: Some say that universal mask requirements are an encroachment on their rights and freedoms. I don’t understand that. I’m not free to shout “Fire!” in a movie theater, talk about bombs when sitting in an airplane, run around the streets naked or urinate in public. I believe in individualism but gladly give up these rights for the common good. But there is another way to look at this. Why not just wear a mask voluntarily based on the benefits discussed above?

#7 – Denial of service to those not wearing a mask: We’ve seen examples of people getting very upset and aggressive when told they can’t come into a store without a mask. This is another one I don’t understand. Why can’t a store insist on mask-wearing? Do you also object to their restrictions against shoeless and shirtless customers? I understand that some people can’t wear masks (difficulty breathing, etc.). But these are special cases and there should be ways to handle them.

#8 – Mask design and availability: In my opinion we are in a war. The government, under the Defense Production Act, should take steps to ensure availability of quality masks not just for health care providers but for all. There should also be a review of mask designs and some guidelines provided for what constitutes an acceptable mask for the public. Should everyone have an N95 mask? Maybe. The masks should be easily decontaminable for reuse. Necessary research and development should be identified and acted on. Some might say it’s too late for that. But what about the next time?

Folks, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The name of the game is risk reduction and we should all do our share….wearing a mask is a big part of that.

As I said, I’m interested in understanding why all the negativism regarding mask-wearing. I would appreciate hearing your reasons if you disagree with any of what I’ve said above . But, please, no politics!

Thank you if you got this far!
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional dis... (show quote)

Some people take things too far and forget to discuss the issues and if someone says so they jump on board without considering the consequences. The other day I went the pharmacy to get my meds that I had requested and one of the techs was emphatic that I had a mask on so I complied because I had one in my hand but had forgotten to put in on. I am old and somewhat forgetful. But the same tech refused my request for 90 days supply and I only got 30 days worth. I have refused it once already and told them to call the doctor to get that changed giving them two days to do that. But the same old thirty days was given to me. Many young people are stupid, cannot think outside the box, and are lazy. So the same grocery store/pharmacy had on the floor signs indicating one way travel because someone thought it would comply with social distancing. So in other words if I am on the wrong end of the aisle and the item is ten feet from the end, I have to walk all the way around and back down to get the item that is ten feet away. In other words I have to walk 90 feet instead of ten. There comes a point when stupidity should not rule.

BTW I am, at least I consider myself a Constitutional conservative also but we vary on that interpretation. I put the Constitution first, the way it was originally written and not the new tendency to interpret it. That is what a true conservative is.

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 09:29:54   #
srt101fan
 
DocDav wrote:
I am a podiatrist. I do surgery. I treat infected wounds.

We don't wear a mask in surgery to protect our self. We wear it to protect the patient. That would be a regular surgical tie over the head mask quite similar to the over the ear mask most people have ( the blue or pink ones).

The mask protects us a "bit" but it is significant. It protect the patient from us, the staff and docs, a whole lot.

During infected processes if potentially air borne ( not my specialty) we wear the N95 mask. Often with a regular surgical mask on top of that. A real N95 is fit tested. That mask, the N95, is actually a respirator. It is tight. It hurts. It leaves marks and later bruises and is potentially dangerous for someone with say, severe COPD. In public, a paper over the ear or a fabric mask ( constructed well and properly) is protecting you the wearer a tad, but better than nothing, and the person next to you, significantly. So, if we all wore one we could get the R0 - reproduction rate of SARS-CoV-2 down below one. Meaning each infected person then infects less than one and the curse starts to go down.

Often in the hospital those in the Covid ICU will wear a PAPR , a positive pressure airway helmet. Air is filtered by a unit on your waiste or back and flows under positive pressure around your face and out the bottom of the hood.

Moral of the story? Wear a mask. No violation of your rights. No Civil right violation. In my office if you decline after being asked, you are politely pointed to the door. For a paper or cloth mask, there are exemptions, but medically they are very, very few in number. Inconvenient yep. Nasty hot breath - yep. Safe- yep. End of story about masks.

Oh as a PS. They don't breed bacteria, they don't cause infections (keep them clean and rotate them), they don't stop O2 from getting in, they don't cause a build up of CO2, OSHA did never suggest other wise and all the other excuses I hear. I even read one woman felt she was exempt because her gynecological exam was abnormal ( last I took anatomy that "thang" does not breath - don't think that has changed much) and her chiropractor told her they were dangerous. They aren't dangerous and the chiropractor is catering to her and probably charging her. As a podiatrist I have been asked to write exemptions. Feet don't breath either so no. I don't.
I am a podiatrist. I do surgery. I treat infecte... (show quote)


Substantive comments with a bit of levity!

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 11:21:43   #
David Martin Loc: Cary, NC
 
fetzler wrote:
Businesses have the right to set dress codes for various reasons. If they are perceived as unreasonable, they will have no customers. The President and governors probably cannot legally dictate personal behavior but can make strong recommendations. Legislative bodies can, however, make laws.

Here is a historical review of how our judicial branch has regarded health mandates issued by the executive branch (but not legislated into law) such as local and state orders to wear masks:
"Face-Covering Requirements and the Constitution"
https://www.acslaw.org/expertforum/face-covering-requirements-and-the-constitution/

Basically the precedent most often cited is Jacobson v. Massachusetts: in 1905 the U.S. Supreme Court sided with the executive branch, agreeing with the state that, in the midst of a smallpox epidemic, the state had the right to mandate vaccination under penalty of a fine for refusal. "Upon the principle of self-defense, of paramount necessity, a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members."

The article makes for interesting reading from a Constitutional standpoint.

Reply
Jul 18, 2020 12:02:47   #
Salomj9850
 
I don't see how blaming professors political beliefs apply. There are people from all political points of view involved in our educational system. People who identify as Progressives endorse the working for the common good as do many Conservatives. I think it is important to remember that diseases don't pay attention to political affiliations.

Reply
 
Note: posting politics outside of the Attic is against UHH rules. Users that bring politics into this discussion will have their accounts banned from replying in this topic. Repeated violations will lead to account suspension.
 
Page <<first <prev 9 of 14 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
General Chit-Chat (non-photography talk)
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.