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Once again…The Mask!
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Note: posting politics outside of the Attic is against UHH rules. Users that bring politics into this discussion will have their accounts banned from replying in this topic. Repeated violations will lead to account suspension.
 
Jul 17, 2020 17:29:52   #
fetzler Loc: North West PA
 
rehess wrote:
Your heart doctor is out of step with the rest of the medical community.
Each of my eye doctor, skin doctor, and GP had me wear a mask for the entire exam.


Your doctors had you do this to comply with government dictates. We have no idea what they actually believe.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 18:00:21   #
mr spock Loc: Fairfield CT
 
srt101fan wrote:
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional discussion of the issue of masking? I’d like to think so and want to give it a try. By way of background, I’ve been called a “Constitutional Conservative” by friends; I consider myself an independent, espousing a liberal or conservative view depending on the issue. In other words, my thinking and judgment is issue-based and, hopefully, always independent of political bias.

I have firm beliefs concerning the masking issue but I fully recognize that there are other, to me perhaps incomprehensible, points of view. I would like to understand these better. Please help me do that with thoughtful, civil and unemotional responses to my positions.

#1 – Covid-19 is a very large and nasty threat to our personal and national health and welfare: Yes, it is a bigger threat to older folks and those with preexisting health issues but it attacks all ages. It is much worse than the common flu. It makes no sense to downplay the magnitude of the problem. So the first step to an effective national response is for all of us to agree that this is a very serious problem. Some people get hung up on what they consider false statistics, how deaths are categorized, how testing results are published, etc. Can we stop this sideshow, folks, and agree that we’ve got a helluva problem and that we all need to contribute to the solution?

#2 – Mask effectiveness: Some argue that masks are ineffective in filtering out viruses and are therefore useless. Generally true that they can’t trap single, individual virus particles. But the virus isn’t dispersed that way. The biggest threat is viruses attached to droplets of fluids expelled in an infected person’s breath, sneeze or cough. True, recent findings suggest the viruses may also travel in aerosol “clouds” that could be airborne for some time (an aerosol can be loosely defined as a cloud of small particles or droplets whose travel is influenced more by air movement than by gravity). But threat aerosol droplets/particles are still bigger than individual viruses. And speaking of individual viruses, the “viral load” (or viral "dose") is a factor in that it determines the severity of the illness. So, do masks offer perfect protection? No. Do they reduce the risk? Absolutely....

#3 – Masks reduce the probability of an infected person infecting others: This one would seem to be tough to argue against. We know that face coverings can stop droplets expelled with breath air, sneezing and coughing. Many infected people have no symptoms and don’t know they are carriers. Doesn’t it make sense to sacrifice a little of your personal freedom and put up with a little discomfort in order to further the safety of others, including your families and friends? What would be your reasons for not doing it?

#4 – Self-protection - masks reduce the probability of you getting infected: Much has been made of the value of face coverings in reducing the dispersion of coronavirus by infected persons. Not much has been said of the protection against coronavirus provided to the individuals wearing the mask. I’ve seen this denied or downplayed. I don’t understand why. The filtration material works the same way, whether the air stream is going one way or the other. Granted, the dynamics of the filter challenge are different. In preventing the spread of coronavirus by an infected person we are trying to stop the droplets at the source. When considering the self-protection aspect of wearing a mask we may be faced with a somewhat different filter challenge in that our physical position relative to the airborne threat, as well as the size of the droplets, may be different. Mask construction and fit are also issues. But masks will reduce the risk of infection to the wearer. How much? There are too many variables to allow accurate assessment. But for me, even a slight risk reduction (and I believe it is significantly more than “slight”) is worth putting up with the downsides. Isn’t it for you?

#5 – Positive effect of mask-wearing on businesses: We all lament the terrible effect coronavirus has had on small businesses and the economy in general. Nobody wants to see local stores and businesses shut down. I believe that businesses would be helped if everyone wore a mask and acted prudently when in public. Mask-wearing would reduce the overall spread of the virus thus moving faster towards relaxation of closures. But it also could have another positive effect. Many people are reluctant to go anywhere because of fear of infection. With everyone wearing masks there would be less fear and more willingness to support business establishments. Isn't this a positive effect of wearing masks in public?

#6 – “It’s an infringement on my rights”: Some say that universal mask requirements are an encroachment on their rights and freedoms. I don’t understand that. I’m not free to shout “Fire!” in a movie theater, talk about bombs when sitting in an airplane, run around the streets naked or urinate in public. I believe in individualism but gladly give up these rights for the common good. But there is another way to look at this. Why not just wear a mask voluntarily based on the benefits discussed above?

#7 – Denial of service to those not wearing a mask: We’ve seen examples of people getting very upset and aggressive when told they can’t come into a store without a mask. This is another one I don’t understand. Why can’t a store insist on mask-wearing? Do you also object to their restrictions against shoeless and shirtless customers? I understand that some people can’t wear masks (difficulty breathing, etc.). But these are special cases and there should be ways to handle them.

#8 – Mask design and availability: In my opinion we are in a war. The government, under the Defense Production Act, should take steps to ensure availability of quality masks not just for health care providers but for all. There should also be a review of mask designs and some guidelines provided for what constitutes an acceptable mask for the public. Should everyone have an N95 mask? Maybe. The masks should be easily decontaminable for reuse. Necessary research and development should be identified and acted on. Some might say it’s too late for that. But what about the next time?

Folks, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The name of the game is risk reduction and we should all do our share….wearing a mask is a big part of that.

As I said, I’m interested in understanding why all the negativism regarding mask-wearing. I would appreciate hearing your reasons if you disagree with any of what I’ve said above . But, please, no politics!

Thank you if you got this far!
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional dis... (show quote)


Extremely well put and right on target. Anyone with some common sense should be able to grasp what you’re saying.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 18:36:34   #
srt101fan
 
fetzler wrote:
Your statement is clear and and non-political. That is good.

I have taken the time to read some of the primary literature on the effectiveness of surgical type masks on viral infections. My reading of this literature suggests that the effectiveness of masks in far from certain. Indeed, the WHO position has been ,until recently, that masks are NOT effective. (I make no comment on the voracity of the WHO.) Indeed the studies that I read would indicate that they are not. It is also clear that masks make people feel better. A psychological benefit exists. Your claim that masks are effective is far from proven.

Businesses have the right to set dress codes for various reasons. If they are perceived as unreasonable, they will have no customers. The President and governors probably cannot legally dictate personal behavior but can make strong recommendations. Legislative bodies can, however, make laws.

Miami Beach is now a hot spot for young people. I can assure you that one cannot social distance when your tongue is shoved down the throat of a new friend. Such behavior, however, is legal between consenting adults. Hormones dictate that such behavior will occur.

The media could play an important role in educating folks on the various medical issues associated with COVID. Unfortunately, at this time, the media lacks the credibility to do this. Furthermore, the media is full of individuals that are scientifically illiterate. Many even seem incapable of rational thought. The media has done much to stoke unnecessary fear.

Part of the reason for folks not wearing masks is that they do not believe the media and many individuals in government. Clearly, there are mayors that have gone mad to the point that they cannot perform their most basic responsibilities.

COVID is a complex medical problem with many unknowns. Certainly one needs to address medical, economic, sociological issues and try to simultaneously optimize the outcome with respect to all dimensions. This is a monumental problem that one cannot expect perfection from anyone.


The victims of COVID will include many individuals who were not infected by COVID. Some of these will include those who sink into poverty from the inability to make a living, some will go mad and may commit suicide (Indeed some commenting here are on this path), some will be have their businesses destroyed, be maimed or killed by madmen rioting in the street. I could also point out those who are victims of delayed medical treatment. Children, particularly those who are in poor families, will miss critical educational opportunities that may not replaceable at a later time.
Your statement is clear and and non-political. Tha... (show quote)


Thank you for your reply and for taking the discussion seriously. I agree with much of what you say. We obviously disagree on the issue of mask effectiveness. Granted that evaluation of the protection factor provided by a mask is a complex issue that depends on test protocols. Again, though, I don't expect full protection from the masks. But I think in terms of risk reduction, and firmly believe that even simple masks will reduce the risk of spreading and inhaling coronaviros contamination. I would be interested, though, in reading the reports you mentioned. Can you provide references?

Reply
 
 
Jul 17, 2020 18:46:13   #
PhotogHobbyist Loc: Bradford, PA
 
DocDav wrote:
So many untrained conspiracy theorists out there that it literally is shocking.


I would ask, what basic science courses did those untrained conspiracy theorists attend or study in school and what grades did they attain?

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 19:10:44   #
DocDav Loc: IN
 
Laughing at that. Accurate indeed

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 19:38:27   #
eskiles Loc: Palmer Alaska
 
cmc4214 wrote:
The more we slow the progression of this disease, the longer it will be around

You need to cite your logic! If the virus is slowed, that means there are less cases for it to grow, if it can’t grow it will eventually die of exposure to the air, sunlight, and lack of a growth media! As far as I know it does not lie dormant, it tends to become ineffective after it dries out and dies! It needs an active host to spread its progeny! So by using masks, social distancing, washing and bathing often, you are denying it the tools it needs to multiply! Thus speeding its removal from effective propagation! Any life form that is denied what it needs to Live and multiply will eventually die!

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 19:47:47   #
Hal81 Loc: Bucks County, Pa.
 
I guess the most wanted posters will be a thing or the past. Bank robbers will go into a bank looking just like everyone else...

Reply
 
 
Jul 17, 2020 19:50:08   #
HOHIMER
 
cmc4214 wrote:
The more we slow the progression of this disease, the longer it will be around


So, what is the alternative? Overload the health care system until it breaks down?
Then no one will get treatment for anything. Let everyone get Covid19 and die before we have time to develop a treatment or vaccine? That is a good plan?

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 20:07:16   #
LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America
 
Even a vaccine will not end this.

H1N1(1918 flu/swine flu) still kills tens of thousand to hundreds of thousands yearly even though a vaccine has been around for decades.

Getting people to get the shot will be the key.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 20:13:44   #
nobody13579
 
LWW wrote:
Even a vaccine will not end this.

H1N1(1918 flu/swine flu) still kills tens of thousand to hundreds of thousands yearly even though a vaccine has been around for decades.

Getting people to get the shot will be the key.



You are correct.

Getting people to get the shot will be the key

Part of the problem will be that the 'anti maskers' are more than likely also 'anti vaxers'. Idiots abound.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 20:20:12   #
LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America
 
nobody13579 wrote:
You are correct.

Getting people to get the shot will be the key

Part of the problem will be that the 'anti maskers' are more than likely also 'anti vaxers'. Idiots abound.


I’m 64 years and 9 months on this planet, and fools have always been abundant.

Reply
 
 
Jul 17, 2020 20:35:26   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
srt101fan wrote:
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional discussion of the issue of masking? I’d like to think so and want to give it a try. By way of background, I’ve been called a “Constitutional Conservative” by friends; I consider myself an independent, espousing a liberal or conservative view depending on the issue. In other words, my thinking and judgment is issue-based and, hopefully, always independent of political bias.

I have firm beliefs concerning the masking issue but I fully recognize that there are other, to me perhaps incomprehensible, points of view. I would like to understand these better. Please help me do that with thoughtful, civil and unemotional responses to my positions.

#1 – Covid-19 is a very large and nasty threat to our personal and national health and welfare: Yes, it is a bigger threat to older folks and those with preexisting health issues but it attacks all ages. It is much worse than the common flu. It makes no sense to downplay the magnitude of the problem. So the first step to an effective national response is for all of us to agree that this is a very serious problem. Some people get hung up on what they consider false statistics, how deaths are categorized, how testing results are published, etc. Can we stop this sideshow, folks, and agree that we’ve got a helluva problem and that we all need to contribute to the solution?

#2 – Mask effectiveness: Some argue that masks are ineffective in filtering out viruses and are therefore useless. Generally true that they can’t trap single, individual virus particles. But the virus isn’t dispersed that way. The biggest threat is viruses attached to droplets of fluids expelled in an infected person’s breath, sneeze or cough. True, recent findings suggest the viruses may also travel in aerosol “clouds” that could be airborne for some time (an aerosol can be loosely defined as a cloud of small particles or droplets whose travel is influenced more by air movement than by gravity). But threat aerosol droplets/particles are still bigger than individual viruses. And speaking of individual viruses, the “viral load” (or viral "dose") is a factor in that it determines the severity of the illness. So, do masks offer perfect protection? No. Do they reduce the risk? Absolutely....

#3 – Masks reduce the probability of an infected person infecting others: This one would seem to be tough to argue against. We know that face coverings can stop droplets expelled with breath air, sneezing and coughing. Many infected people have no symptoms and don’t know they are carriers. Doesn’t it make sense to sacrifice a little of your personal freedom and put up with a little discomfort in order to further the safety of others, including your families and friends? What would be your reasons for not doing it?

#4 – Self-protection - masks reduce the probability of you getting infected: Much has been made of the value of face coverings in reducing the dispersion of coronavirus by infected persons. Not much has been said of the protection against coronavirus provided to the individuals wearing the mask. I’ve seen this denied or downplayed. I don’t understand why. The filtration material works the same way, whether the air stream is going one way or the other. Granted, the dynamics of the filter challenge are different. In preventing the spread of coronavirus by an infected person we are trying to stop the droplets at the source. When considering the self-protection aspect of wearing a mask we may be faced with a somewhat different filter challenge in that our physical position relative to the airborne threat, as well as the size of the droplets, may be different. Mask construction and fit are also issues. But masks will reduce the risk of infection to the wearer. How much? There are too many variables to allow accurate assessment. But for me, even a slight risk reduction (and I believe it is significantly more than “slight”) is worth putting up with the downsides. Isn’t it for you?

#5 – Positive effect of mask-wearing on businesses: We all lament the terrible effect coronavirus has had on small businesses and the economy in general. Nobody wants to see local stores and businesses shut down. I believe that businesses would be helped if everyone wore a mask and acted prudently when in public. Mask-wearing would reduce the overall spread of the virus thus moving faster towards relaxation of closures. But it also could have another positive effect. Many people are reluctant to go anywhere because of fear of infection. With everyone wearing masks there would be less fear and more willingness to support business establishments. Isn't this a positive effect of wearing masks in public?

#6 – “It’s an infringement on my rights”: Some say that universal mask requirements are an encroachment on their rights and freedoms. I don’t understand that. I’m not free to shout “Fire!” in a movie theater, talk about bombs when sitting in an airplane, run around the streets naked or urinate in public. I believe in individualism but gladly give up these rights for the common good. But there is another way to look at this. Why not just wear a mask voluntarily based on the benefits discussed above?

#7 – Denial of service to those not wearing a mask: We’ve seen examples of people getting very upset and aggressive when told they can’t come into a store without a mask. This is another one I don’t understand. Why can’t a store insist on mask-wearing? Do you also object to their restrictions against shoeless and shirtless customers? I understand that some people can’t wear masks (difficulty breathing, etc.). But these are special cases and there should be ways to handle them.

#8 – Mask design and availability: In my opinion we are in a war. The government, under the Defense Production Act, should take steps to ensure availability of quality masks not just for health care providers but for all. There should also be a review of mask designs and some guidelines provided for what constitutes an acceptable mask for the public. Should everyone have an N95 mask? Maybe. The masks should be easily decontaminable for reuse. Necessary research and development should be identified and acted on. Some might say it’s too late for that. But what about the next time?

Folks, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The name of the game is risk reduction and we should all do our share….wearing a mask is a big part of that.

As I said, I’m interested in understanding why all the negativism regarding mask-wearing. I would appreciate hearing your reasons if you disagree with any of what I’ve said above . But, please, no politics!

Thank you if you got this far!
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional dis... (show quote)


Can you blow out a candle from 6 feet? Let us know if you can. Because I can't.

Isn't it logical to conclude then it would take that much force to effectively transmit something airborne to another person 6 feet away? I don't know about you but I wouldn't come within 6 feet of a blowing spitting person Covid times or not. Why isn't the distance thing the more important fact here than masks? Distance is the key. Make a big deal about that. Masks should only be relied on in an emergency when you are indoors in close quarters. They are not the panacea.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 20:54:21   #
DocDav Loc: IN
 
False equivalency with blowing out a candle 6 ft vs droplets traveling that far.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 20:55:43   #
srt101fan
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Can you blow out a candle from 6 feet? Let us know if you can. Because I can't.

Isn't it logical to conclude then it would take that much force to effectively transmit something airborne to another person 6 feet away? I don't know about you but I wouldn't come within 6 feet of a blowing spitting person Covid times or not. Why isn't the distance thing the more important fact here than masks? Distance is the key. Make a big deal about that. Masks should only be relied on in an emergency when you are indoors in close quarters. They are not the panacea.
Can you blow out a candle from 6 feet? Let us know... (show quote)


No question that distancing is important. But distancing is sometimes difficult to achieve. I noticed that in supermarkets. Even walking you may not be able to avoid some closer contacts. I agree that masks are not a panacea but I think they're a critical component in the battle against coronavirus.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 21:14:28   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
DocDav wrote:
False equivalency with blowing out a candle 6 ft vs droplets traveling that far.


Try blowing out a candle or a match from 5 feet. We're talking about something invisible here.
Why is everyone so sure about their views?



Reply
 
Note: posting politics outside of the Attic is against UHH rules. Users that bring politics into this discussion will have their accounts banned from replying in this topic. Repeated violations will lead to account suspension.
 
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