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Once again…The Mask!
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Note: posting politics outside of the Attic is against UHH rules. Users that bring politics into this discussion will have their accounts banned from replying in this topic. Repeated violations will lead to account suspension.
 
Jul 17, 2020 15:23:41   #
sumo Loc: Houston suburb
 
My heart doctor says mask are BS. my primary care doctor says mask are a must wear.
Only doctors I trust now days are Dr Seuss and Dr Pepper

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 15:36:25   #
srt101fan
 
Stash wrote:
I guess I am one of the five.


Thank you, Stash! 😉

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 15:37:08   #
nobody13579
 
gvarner wrote:
Do what you can to get yourself infected but don’t give it to granny.



Reply
 
 
Jul 17, 2020 15:39:39   #
nobody13579
 


Who is this idiot and what are his qualifications?

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 15:41:51   #
DocDav Loc: IN
 
I would have no qualms asking that cardiologist what journal or scientific research he reads to back himself up on that claim. He really cant and I would personally tell him he is full of BS himself and find another cardiologist. The mans a quack who has given up science in my opinion.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 15:43:42   #
DocDav Loc: IN
 
So many untrained conspiracy theorists out there that it literally is shocking.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 15:44:22   #
shangyrhee Loc: Nashville TN to Sacramento CA
 
srt101fan wrote:
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional discussion of the issue of masking? I’d like to think so and want to give it a try. By way of background, I’ve been called a “Constitutional Conservative” by friends; I consider myself an independent, espousing a liberal or conservative view depending on the issue. In other words, my thinking and judgment is issue-based and, hopefully, always independent of political bias.

I have firm beliefs concerning the masking issue but I fully recognize that there are other, to me perhaps incomprehensible, points of view. I would like to understand these better. Please help me do that with thoughtful, civil and unemotional responses to my positions.

#1 – Covid-19 is a very large and nasty threat to our personal and national health and welfare: Yes, it is a bigger threat to older folks and those with preexisting health issues but it attacks all ages. It is much worse than the common flu. It makes no sense to downplay the magnitude of the problem. So the first step to an effective national response is for all of us to agree that this is a very serious problem. Some people get hung up on what they consider false statistics, how deaths are categorized, how testing results are published, etc. Can we stop this sideshow, folks, and agree that we’ve got a helluva problem and that we all need to contribute to the solution?

#2 – Mask effectiveness: Some argue that masks are ineffective in filtering out viruses and are therefore useless. Generally true that they can’t trap single, individual virus particles. But the virus isn’t dispersed that way. The biggest threat is viruses attached to droplets of fluids expelled in an infected person’s breath, sneeze or cough. True, recent findings suggest the viruses may also travel in aerosol “clouds” that could be airborne for some time (an aerosol can be loosely defined as a cloud of small particles or droplets whose travel is influenced more by air movement than by gravity). But threat aerosol droplets/particles are still bigger than individual viruses. And speaking of individual viruses, the “viral load” (or viral "dose") is a factor in that it determines the severity of the illness. So, do masks offer perfect protection? No. Do they reduce the risk? Absolutely....

#3 – Masks reduce the probability of an infected person infecting others: This one would seem to be tough to argue against. We know that face coverings can stop droplets expelled with breath air, sneezing and coughing. Many infected people have no symptoms and don’t know they are carriers. Doesn’t it make sense to sacrifice a little of your personal freedom and put up with a little discomfort in order to further the safety of others, including your families and friends? What would be your reasons for not doing it?

#4 – Self-protection - masks reduce the probability of you getting infected: Much has been made of the value of face coverings in reducing the dispersion of coronavirus by infected persons. Not much has been said of the protection against coronavirus provided to the individuals wearing the mask. I’ve seen this denied or downplayed. I don’t understand why. The filtration material works the same way, whether the air stream is going one way or the other. Granted, the dynamics of the filter challenge are different. In preventing the spread of coronavirus by an infected person we are trying to stop the droplets at the source. When considering the self-protection aspect of wearing a mask we may be faced with a somewhat different filter challenge in that our physical position relative to the airborne threat, as well as the size of the droplets, may be different. Mask construction and fit are also issues. But masks will reduce the risk of infection to the wearer. How much? There are too many variables to allow accurate assessment. But for me, even a slight risk reduction (and I believe it is significantly more than “slight”) is worth putting up with the downsides. Isn’t it for you?

#5 – Positive effect of mask-wearing on businesses: We all lament the terrible effect coronavirus has had on small businesses and the economy in general. Nobody wants to see local stores and businesses shut down. I believe that businesses would be helped if everyone wore a mask and acted prudently when in public. Mask-wearing would reduce the overall spread of the virus thus moving faster towards relaxation of closures. But it also could have another positive effect. Many people are reluctant to go anywhere because of fear of infection. With everyone wearing masks there would be less fear and more willingness to support business establishments. Isn't this a positive effect of wearing masks in public?

#6 – “It’s an infringement on my rights”: Some say that universal mask requirements are an encroachment on their rights and freedoms. I don’t understand that. I’m not free to shout “Fire!” in a movie theater, talk about bombs when sitting in an airplane, run around the streets naked or urinate in public. I believe in individualism but gladly give up these rights for the common good. But there is another way to look at this. Why not just wear a mask voluntarily based on the benefits discussed above?

#7 – Denial of service to those not wearing a mask: We’ve seen examples of people getting very upset and aggressive when told they can’t come into a store without a mask. This is another one I don’t understand. Why can’t a store insist on mask-wearing? Do you also object to their restrictions against shoeless and shirtless customers? I understand that some people can’t wear masks (difficulty breathing, etc.). But these are special cases and there should be ways to handle them.

#8 – Mask design and availability: In my opinion we are in a war. The government, under the Defense Production Act, should take steps to ensure availability of quality masks not just for health care providers but for all. There should also be a review of mask designs and some guidelines provided for what constitutes an acceptable mask for the public. Should everyone have an N95 mask? Maybe. The masks should be easily decontaminable for reuse. Necessary research and development should be identified and acted on. Some might say it’s too late for that. But what about the next time?

Folks, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The name of the game is risk reduction and we should all do our share….wearing a mask is a big part of that.

As I said, I’m interested in understanding why all the negativism regarding mask-wearing. I would appreciate hearing your reasons if you disagree with any of what I’ve said above . But, please, no politics!

Thank you if you got this far!
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional dis... (show quote)


Agree with you for scientific facts and good old common sense. Thank you for your efforts. Shang

Reply
 
 
Jul 17, 2020 15:45:04   #
nobody13579
 
sumo wrote:
My heart doctor says mask are BS. my primary care doctor says mask are a must wear.
Only doctors I trust now days are Dr Seuss and Dr Pepper


Your cardiologist figures you are dead meat anyway. Your primary care doc wants to keep you alive.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 15:45:42   #
DocDav Loc: IN
 
Well said

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 16:05:32   #
sumo Loc: Houston suburb
 
nobody13579 wrote:
Your cardiologist figures you are dead meat anyway. Your primary care doc wants to keep you alive.


never looked at it that way...maybe you're right....would imagine all the leftist on here hoping he is right

thought this was funny....if I can get it attached

Attached file:
(Download)

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 16:10:45   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
rehess wrote:
and people such as the Governors of Florida and Georgia don’t seem to care.
At age 72, I very likely won’t survive to see the end of this thing.
hj wrote:
Do you not understand the concept of "Leave politics out of the discussion?"

Discussing my own longevity is not politics.
The beginning of my comment was continuation of the thought I was reacting to.

Reply
 
 
Jul 17, 2020 16:13:10   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
sumo wrote:
My heart doctor says mask are BS. my primary care doctor says mask are a must wear.

Your heart doctor is out of step with the rest of the medical community.
Each of my eye doctor, skin doctor, and GP had me wear a mask for the entire exam.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 17:07:35   #
fetzler Loc: North West PA
 
srt101fan wrote:
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional discussion of the issue of masking? I’d like to think so and want to give it a try. By way of background, I’ve been called a “Constitutional Conservative” by friends; I consider myself an independent, espousing a liberal or conservative view depending on the issue. In other words, my thinking and judgment is issue-based and, hopefully, always independent of political bias.

I have firm beliefs concerning the masking issue but I fully recognize that there are other, to me perhaps incomprehensible, points of view. I would like to understand these better. Please help me do that with thoughtful, civil and unemotional responses to my positions.

#1 – Covid-19 is a very large and nasty threat to our personal and national health and welfare: Yes, it is a bigger threat to older folks and those with preexisting health issues but it attacks all ages. It is much worse than the common flu. It makes no sense to downplay the magnitude of the problem. So the first step to an effective national response is for all of us to agree that this is a very serious problem. Some people get hung up on what they consider false statistics, how deaths are categorized, how testing results are published, etc. Can we stop this sideshow, folks, and agree that we’ve got a helluva problem and that we all need to contribute to the solution?

#2 – Mask effectiveness: Some argue that masks are ineffective in filtering out viruses and are therefore useless. Generally true that they can’t trap single, individual virus particles. But the virus isn’t dispersed that way. The biggest threat is viruses attached to droplets of fluids expelled in an infected person’s breath, sneeze or cough. True, recent findings suggest the viruses may also travel in aerosol “clouds” that could be airborne for some time (an aerosol can be loosely defined as a cloud of small particles or droplets whose travel is influenced more by air movement than by gravity). But threat aerosol droplets/particles are still bigger than individual viruses. And speaking of individual viruses, the “viral load” (or viral "dose") is a factor in that it determines the severity of the illness. So, do masks offer perfect protection? No. Do they reduce the risk? Absolutely....

#3 – Masks reduce the probability of an infected person infecting others: This one would seem to be tough to argue against. We know that face coverings can stop droplets expelled with breath air, sneezing and coughing. Many infected people have no symptoms and don’t know they are carriers. Doesn’t it make sense to sacrifice a little of your personal freedom and put up with a little discomfort in order to further the safety of others, including your families and friends? What would be your reasons for not doing it?

#4 – Self-protection - masks reduce the probability of you getting infected: Much has been made of the value of face coverings in reducing the dispersion of coronavirus by infected persons. Not much has been said of the protection against coronavirus provided to the individuals wearing the mask. I’ve seen this denied or downplayed. I don’t understand why. The filtration material works the same way, whether the air stream is going one way or the other. Granted, the dynamics of the filter challenge are different. In preventing the spread of coronavirus by an infected person we are trying to stop the droplets at the source. When considering the self-protection aspect of wearing a mask we may be faced with a somewhat different filter challenge in that our physical position relative to the airborne threat, as well as the size of the droplets, may be different. Mask construction and fit are also issues. But masks will reduce the risk of infection to the wearer. How much? There are too many variables to allow accurate assessment. But for me, even a slight risk reduction (and I believe it is significantly more than “slight”) is worth putting up with the downsides. Isn’t it for you?

#5 – Positive effect of mask-wearing on businesses: We all lament the terrible effect coronavirus has had on small businesses and the economy in general. Nobody wants to see local stores and businesses shut down. I believe that businesses would be helped if everyone wore a mask and acted prudently when in public. Mask-wearing would reduce the overall spread of the virus thus moving faster towards relaxation of closures. But it also could have another positive effect. Many people are reluctant to go anywhere because of fear of infection. With everyone wearing masks there would be less fear and more willingness to support business establishments. Isn't this a positive effect of wearing masks in public?

#6 – “It’s an infringement on my rights”: Some say that universal mask requirements are an encroachment on their rights and freedoms. I don’t understand that. I’m not free to shout “Fire!” in a movie theater, talk about bombs when sitting in an airplane, run around the streets naked or urinate in public. I believe in individualism but gladly give up these rights for the common good. But there is another way to look at this. Why not just wear a mask voluntarily based on the benefits discussed above?

#7 – Denial of service to those not wearing a mask: We’ve seen examples of people getting very upset and aggressive when told they can’t come into a store without a mask. This is another one I don’t understand. Why can’t a store insist on mask-wearing? Do you also object to their restrictions against shoeless and shirtless customers? I understand that some people can’t wear masks (difficulty breathing, etc.). But these are special cases and there should be ways to handle them.

#8 – Mask design and availability: In my opinion we are in a war. The government, under the Defense Production Act, should take steps to ensure availability of quality masks not just for health care providers but for all. There should also be a review of mask designs and some guidelines provided for what constitutes an acceptable mask for the public. Should everyone have an N95 mask? Maybe. The masks should be easily decontaminable for reuse. Necessary research and development should be identified and acted on. Some might say it’s too late for that. But what about the next time?

Folks, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The name of the game is risk reduction and we should all do our share….wearing a mask is a big part of that.

As I said, I’m interested in understanding why all the negativism regarding mask-wearing. I would appreciate hearing your reasons if you disagree with any of what I’ve said above . But, please, no politics!

Thank you if you got this far!
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional dis... (show quote)


Your statement is clear and and non-political. That is good.

I have taken the time to read some of the primary literature on the effectiveness of surgical type masks on viral infections. My reading of this literature suggests that the effectiveness of masks in far from certain. Indeed, the WHO position has been ,until recently, that masks are NOT effective. (I make no comment on the voracity of the WHO.) Indeed the studies that I read would indicate that they are not. It is also clear that masks make people feel better. A psychological benefit exists. Your claim that masks are effective is far from proven.

Businesses have the right to set dress codes for various reasons. If they are perceived as unreasonable, they will have no customers. The President and governors probably cannot legally dictate personal behavior but can make strong recommendations. Legislative bodies can, however, make laws.

Miami Beach is now a hot spot for young people. I can assure you that one cannot social distance when your tongue is shoved down the throat of a new friend. Such behavior, however, is legal between consenting adults. Hormones dictate that such behavior will occur.

The media could play an important role in educating folks on the various medical issues associated with COVID. Unfortunately, at this time, the media lacks the credibility to do this. Furthermore, the media is full of individuals that are scientifically illiterate. Many even seem incapable of rational thought. The media has done much to stoke unnecessary fear.

Part of the reason for folks not wearing masks is that they do not believe the media and many individuals in government. Clearly, there are mayors that have gone mad to the point that they cannot perform their most basic responsibilities.

COVID is a complex medical problem with many unknowns. Certainly one needs to address medical, economic, sociological issues and try to simultaneously optimize the outcome with respect to all dimensions. This is a monumental problem that one cannot expect perfection from anyone.


The victims of COVID will include many individuals who were not infected by COVID. Some of these will include those who sink into poverty from the inability to make a living, some will go mad and may commit suicide (Indeed some commenting here are on this path), some will be have their businesses destroyed, be maimed or killed by madmen rioting in the street. I could also point out those who are victims of delayed medical treatment. Children, particularly those who are in poor families, will miss critical educational opportunities that may not replaceable at a later time.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 17:22:54   #
supercub
 
Well thought out and written. Would like to add you do not see and health care workers who do not wear a at the very least a mask. This would tend to make me believe there is a reason to wear them.

Reply
Jul 17, 2020 17:28:12   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
Sensible review. But calling to extract discussion of the Chinese Wuhan killer virus from any political concern flies in the face of actuality.

After all, the politicians have spent $3 trillion to fight the virus. So, a skeptic might ask a simple question: How do the politicians expect the national debt to bear this colossal sum without affecting other programs and policies?

Meanwhile, consider the observation of Pericles, an ancient Greek leader: "You may not take an interest in politics, but politics takes an interest in you."
srt101fan wrote:
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional discussion of the issue of masking? I’d like to think so and want to give it a try. By way of background, I’ve been called a “Constitutional Conservative” by friends; I consider myself an independent, espousing a liberal or conservative view depending on the issue. In other words, my thinking and judgment is issue-based and, hopefully, always independent of political bias.

I have firm beliefs concerning the masking issue but I fully recognize that there are other, to me perhaps incomprehensible, points of view. I would like to understand these better. Please help me do that with thoughtful, civil and unemotional responses to my positions.

#1 – Covid-19 is a very large and nasty threat to our personal and national health and welfare: Yes, it is a bigger threat to older folks and those with preexisting health issues but it attacks all ages. It is much worse than the common flu. It makes no sense to downplay the magnitude of the problem. So the first step to an effective national response is for all of us to agree that this is a very serious problem. Some people get hung up on what they consider false statistics, how deaths are categorized, how testing results are published, etc. Can we stop this sideshow, folks, and agree that we’ve got a helluva problem and that we all need to contribute to the solution?

#2 – Mask effectiveness: Some argue that masks are ineffective in filtering out viruses and are therefore useless. Generally true that they can’t trap single, individual virus particles. But the virus isn’t dispersed that way. The biggest threat is viruses attached to droplets of fluids expelled in an infected person’s breath, sneeze or cough. True, recent findings suggest the viruses may also travel in aerosol “clouds” that could be airborne for some time (an aerosol can be loosely defined as a cloud of small particles or droplets whose travel is influenced more by air movement than by gravity). But threat aerosol droplets/particles are still bigger than individual viruses. And speaking of individual viruses, the “viral load” (or viral "dose") is a factor in that it determines the severity of the illness. So, do masks offer perfect protection? No. Do they reduce the risk? Absolutely....

#3 – Masks reduce the probability of an infected person infecting others: This one would seem to be tough to argue against. We know that face coverings can stop droplets expelled with breath air, sneezing and coughing. Many infected people have no symptoms and don’t know they are carriers. Doesn’t it make sense to sacrifice a little of your personal freedom and put up with a little discomfort in order to further the safety of others, including your families and friends? What would be your reasons for not doing it?

#4 – Self-protection - masks reduce the probability of you getting infected: Much has been made of the value of face coverings in reducing the dispersion of coronavirus by infected persons. Not much has been said of the protection against coronavirus provided to the individuals wearing the mask. I’ve seen this denied or downplayed. I don’t understand why. The filtration material works the same way, whether the air stream is going one way or the other. Granted, the dynamics of the filter challenge are different. In preventing the spread of coronavirus by an infected person we are trying to stop the droplets at the source. When considering the self-protection aspect of wearing a mask we may be faced with a somewhat different filter challenge in that our physical position relative to the airborne threat, as well as the size of the droplets, may be different. Mask construction and fit are also issues. But masks will reduce the risk of infection to the wearer. How much? There are too many variables to allow accurate assessment. But for me, even a slight risk reduction (and I believe it is significantly more than “slight”) is worth putting up with the downsides. Isn’t it for you?

#5 – Positive effect of mask-wearing on businesses: We all lament the terrible effect coronavirus has had on small businesses and the economy in general. Nobody wants to see local stores and businesses shut down. I believe that businesses would be helped if everyone wore a mask and acted prudently when in public. Mask-wearing would reduce the overall spread of the virus thus moving faster towards relaxation of closures. But it also could have another positive effect. Many people are reluctant to go anywhere because of fear of infection. With everyone wearing masks there would be less fear and more willingness to support business establishments. Isn't this a positive effect of wearing masks in public?

#6 – “It’s an infringement on my rights”: Some say that universal mask requirements are an encroachment on their rights and freedoms. I don’t understand that. I’m not free to shout “Fire!” in a movie theater, talk about bombs when sitting in an airplane, run around the streets naked or urinate in public. I believe in individualism but gladly give up these rights for the common good. But there is another way to look at this. Why not just wear a mask voluntarily based on the benefits discussed above?

#7 – Denial of service to those not wearing a mask: We’ve seen examples of people getting very upset and aggressive when told they can’t come into a store without a mask. This is another one I don’t understand. Why can’t a store insist on mask-wearing? Do you also object to their restrictions against shoeless and shirtless customers? I understand that some people can’t wear masks (difficulty breathing, etc.). But these are special cases and there should be ways to handle them.

#8 – Mask design and availability: In my opinion we are in a war. The government, under the Defense Production Act, should take steps to ensure availability of quality masks not just for health care providers but for all. There should also be a review of mask designs and some guidelines provided for what constitutes an acceptable mask for the public. Should everyone have an N95 mask? Maybe. The masks should be easily decontaminable for reuse. Necessary research and development should be identified and acted on. Some might say it’s too late for that. But what about the next time?

Folks, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The name of the game is risk reduction and we should all do our share….wearing a mask is a big part of that.

As I said, I’m interested in understanding why all the negativism regarding mask-wearing. I would appreciate hearing your reasons if you disagree with any of what I’ve said above . But, please, no politics!

Thank you if you got this far!
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional dis... (show quote)

Reply
 
Note: posting politics outside of the Attic is against UHH rules. Users that bring politics into this discussion will have their accounts banned from replying in this topic. Repeated violations will lead to account suspension.
 
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