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Once again…The Mask!
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Note: posting politics outside of the Attic is against UHH rules. Users that bring politics into this discussion will have their accounts banned from replying in this topic. Repeated violations will lead to account suspension.
 
Jul 17, 2020 06:34:22   #
chrissybabe Loc: New Zealand
 
DaveO wrote:
Perhaps you will fare better this time in Chit-Chat than you did in the Attic regarding this topic. Your insistence to repeatedly discuss this topic has caused you much discomfort.

Better a little discomfort than a dose of covid-19. Masks make so much sense and I bet you could have decimated the infected/death rate if everybody had been wearing them.
A long time ago on a management course I got told that it took 19 repetitions on average before a new fact/action became second nature. Wearing a mask looks like it will take much more than that before people pick up on it. Or the really bad ones just die.

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Jul 17, 2020 06:37:48   #
DaveO Loc: Northeast CT
 
SteveR wrote:
Lots of troglodytes populate the Attic, Dave.


The pandemic seems to be intensifying many discussions. The unknown flavored with political division is a tough recipe.

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Jul 17, 2020 06:40:57   #
DaveO Loc: Northeast CT
 
chrissybabe wrote:
Better a little discomfort than a dose of covid-19. Masks make so much sense and I bet you could have decimated the infected/death rate if everybody had been wearing them.
A long time ago on a management course I got told that it took 19 repetitions on average before a new fact/action became second nature. Wearing a mask looks like it will take much more than that before people pick up on it. Or the really bad ones just die.


Perhaps addressing your remarks to the OP would be more appropriate as I have no discomfort. The discomfort he feels is not due to the actual wearing of a mask.

Or are you just soapboxing...again.

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Jul 17, 2020 06:48:09   #
chrissybabe Loc: New Zealand
 
DaveO wrote:
Perhaps addressing your remarks to the OP would be more appropriate as I have no discomfort.

Maybe. I got the feeling that your comment "Your insistence to repeatedly discuss this topic has caused you much discomfort." was maybe a bit of a dig at the OP.
Since I find that a good few UHH's seem to be unfeeling/unthinking/selfish have I been a little premature in thinking to include you in that ?
It was a very well written view on mask using and a pity it wasn't around earlier. Plenty of people need to read it 19 times.

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Jul 17, 2020 06:53:19   #
LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America
 
srt101fan wrote:
#6 – “It’s an infringement on my rights”: Some say that universal mask requirements are an encroachment on their rights and freedoms. I don’t understand that. I’m not free to shout “Fire!” in a movie theater, talk about bombs when sitting in an airplane, run around the streets naked or urinate in public. I believe in individualism but gladly give up these rights for the common good. But there is another way to look at this. Why not just wear a mask voluntarily based on the benefits discussed above?
#6 – u “It’s an infringement on my rights” /u : ... (show quote)


As a libertarian I support a citizen's right to be an idiot to a point ... but I view walking around knowing that one might be contaminating others as analogous to drunk driving. One might do it 100 times without adverse results ... and then kill somebody on the 101st.

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Jul 17, 2020 06:54:40   #
DaveO Loc: Northeast CT
 
chrissybabe wrote:
Maybe. I got the feeling that your comment "Your insistence to repeatedly discuss this topic has caused you much discomfort." was maybe a bit of a dig at the OP.
Since I find that a good few UHH's seem to be unfeeling/unthinking/selfish have I been a little premature in thinking to include you in that ?
It was a very well written view on mask using and a pity it wasn't around earlier. Plenty of people need to read it 19 times.


You may include me with whatever makes you comfortable. In several posts and various threads, the OP has received some flak to the extent that he posted a note to Admin, so he appears to be uncomfortable with various reactions on this topic, yet he continues. I was hoping that he fared better this time and that's why I directed my comment to him.

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Jul 17, 2020 06:55:06   #
DIRTY HARRY Loc: Hartland, Michigan
 
Think about it.


(Download)

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Jul 17, 2020 06:56:42   #
DaveO Loc: Northeast CT
 
LWW wrote:
As a libertarian I support a citizen's right to be an idiot to a point ... but I view walking around knowing that one might be contaminating others as analogous to drunk driving. One might do it 100 times without adverse results ... and then kill somebody on the 101st.



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Jul 17, 2020 07:17:20   #
rick Loc: Cape Cod, MA
 
cmc4214 wrote:
The more we slow the progression of this disease, the longer it will be around


That's about as ignorant as it gets. Are you trolling or just plain stupid?

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Jul 17, 2020 07:41:30   #
Country Boy Loc: Beckley, WV
 
I had to laugh, I sat in the car at the grocery store this week and watched people get out of the car, put on their mask and proceed to the door. I thought it would be interesting to take before and after photos of those people because some of them improved their looks greatly when they covered half their face. Looks or not, there is no real good reason to not use the mask. It is little to protect yourself and others!

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Jul 17, 2020 07:48:10   #
Woodworm65 Loc: Lombard, IL
 
I agree with you 100% it seems to me we have created a society which hangs its hat on the constitution which I do believe most of the people who refuse to wear a mask couldn’t spell the word constitution let alone know how to read it, if a business demands you wear a mask to protect not only you but it’s employees then for the good of all do it, what is so dam hard about it would you walk into a public bathroom especially a men’s bathroom with bare feet and we all know what’s on the floor around the urinal then why can you not wear a mask.
As for the 20 somethings who believe it is a hoax or I am healthy and I can survive look at the current statistics as to who are getting it and the outcome once you have had it, better yet they need to go to the morgue and see the body’s that the virus has claimed , and if nothing else think of giving it to your mother, father, grandmother, grandfather please quit thinking about yourself and your freedoms and think about the fact that you may end up taking that freedom away from someone else and WEAR THE DAM MASK.

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Jul 17, 2020 07:51:43   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
srt101fan wrote:
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional discussion of the issue of masking? I’d like to think so and want to give it a try. By way of background, I’ve been called a “Constitutional Conservative” by friends; I consider myself an independent, espousing a liberal or conservative view depending on the issue. In other words, my thinking and judgment is issue-based and, hopefully, always independent of political bias.

I have firm beliefs concerning the masking issue but I fully recognize that there are other, to me perhaps incomprehensible, points of view. I would like to understand these better. Please help me do that with thoughtful, civil and unemotional responses to my positions.

#1 – Covid-19 is a very large and nasty threat to our personal and national health and welfare: Yes, it is a bigger threat to older folks and those with preexisting health issues but it attacks all ages. It is much worse than the common flu. It makes no sense to downplay the magnitude of the problem. So the first step to an effective national response is for all of us to agree that this is a very serious problem. Some people get hung up on what they consider false statistics, how deaths are categorized, how testing results are published, etc. Can we stop this sideshow, folks, and agree that we’ve got a helluva problem and that we all need to contribute to the solution?

#2 – Mask effectiveness: Some argue that masks are ineffective in filtering out viruses and are therefore useless. Generally true that they can’t trap single, individual virus particles. But the virus isn’t dispersed that way. The biggest threat is viruses attached to droplets of fluids expelled in an infected person’s breath, sneeze or cough. True, recent findings suggest the viruses may also travel in aerosol “clouds” that could be airborne for some time (an aerosol can be loosely defined as a cloud of small particles or droplets whose travel is influenced more by air movement than by gravity). But threat aerosol droplets/particles are still bigger than individual viruses. And speaking of individual viruses, the “viral load” (or viral "dose") is a factor in that it determines the severity of the illness. So, do masks offer perfect protection? No. Do they reduce the risk? Absolutely....

#3 – Masks reduce the probability of an infected person infecting others: This one would seem to be tough to argue against. We know that face coverings can stop droplets expelled with breath air, sneezing and coughing. Many infected people have no symptoms and don’t know they are carriers. Doesn’t it make sense to sacrifice a little of your personal freedom and put up with a little discomfort in order to further the safety of others, including your families and friends? What would be your reasons for not doing it?

#4 – Self-protection - masks reduce the probability of you getting infected: Much has been made of the value of face coverings in reducing the dispersion of coronavirus by infected persons. Not much has been said of the protection against coronavirus provided to the individuals wearing the mask. I’ve seen this denied or downplayed. I don’t understand why. The filtration material works the same way, whether the air stream is going one way or the other. Granted, the dynamics of the filter challenge are different. In preventing the spread of coronavirus by an infected person we are trying to stop the droplets at the source. When considering the self-protection aspect of wearing a mask we may be faced with a somewhat different filter challenge in that our physical position relative to the airborne threat, as well as the size of the droplets, may be different. Mask construction and fit are also issues. But masks will reduce the risk of infection to the wearer. How much? There are too many variables to allow accurate assessment. But for me, even a slight risk reduction (and I believe it is significantly more than “slight”) is worth putting up with the downsides. Isn’t it for you?

#5 – Positive effect of mask-wearing on businesses: We all lament the terrible effect coronavirus has had on small businesses and the economy in general. Nobody wants to see local stores and businesses shut down. I believe that businesses would be helped if everyone wore a mask and acted prudently when in public. Mask-wearing would reduce the overall spread of the virus thus moving faster towards relaxation of closures. But it also could have another positive effect. Many people are reluctant to go anywhere because of fear of infection. With everyone wearing masks there would be less fear and more willingness to support business establishments. Isn't this a positive effect of wearing masks in public?

#6 – “It’s an infringement on my rights”: Some say that universal mask requirements are an encroachment on their rights and freedoms. I don’t understand that. I’m not free to shout “Fire!” in a movie theater, talk about bombs when sitting in an airplane, run around the streets naked or urinate in public. I believe in individualism but gladly give up these rights for the common good. But there is another way to look at this. Why not just wear a mask voluntarily based on the benefits discussed above?

#7 – Denial of service to those not wearing a mask: We’ve seen examples of people getting very upset and aggressive when told they can’t come into a store without a mask. This is another one I don’t understand. Why can’t a store insist on mask-wearing? Do you also object to their restrictions against shoeless and shirtless customers? I understand that some people can’t wear masks (difficulty breathing, etc.). But these are special cases and there should be ways to handle them.

#8 – Mask design and availability: In my opinion we are in a war. The government, under the Defense Production Act, should take steps to ensure availability of quality masks not just for health care providers but for all. There should also be a review of mask designs and some guidelines provided for what constitutes an acceptable mask for the public. Should everyone have an N95 mask? Maybe. The masks should be easily decontaminable for reuse. Necessary research and development should be identified and acted on. Some might say it’s too late for that. But what about the next time?

Folks, it’s not an “all or nothing” situation. The name of the game is risk reduction and we should all do our share….wearing a mask is a big part of that.

As I said, I’m interested in understanding why all the negativism regarding mask-wearing. I would appreciate hearing your reasons if you disagree with any of what I’ve said above . But, please, no politics!

Thank you if you got this far!
Is it possible to have a civil and unemotional dis... (show quote)




I made a bunch and bought a bunch. Wearing a mask is just common sense, like going to the hospital when you break your arm. Countries that have used social distancing, masks, and testing are now getting back to normal, while "the land of the free" is leading the world in infections.

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Jul 17, 2020 07:56:13   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
jerryc41 wrote:


I made a bunch and bought a bunch. Wearing a mask is just common sense, like going to the hospital when you break your arm. Countries that have used social distancing, masks, and testing are now getting back to normal, while "the land of the free" is leading the world in infections.

and people such as the Governors of Florida and Georgia don’t seem to care.
At age 72, I very likely won’t survive to see the end of this thing.

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Jul 17, 2020 07:58:01   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
cmc4214 wrote:
The more we slow the progression of this disease, the longer it will be around


Right! Everyone should be injected with the virus. Let natural selection sort them out. Only the strong will survive, and we will have a better population. I think the White House considered this, but they couldn't get enough syringes and Covid doses produced, so they gave up on it.

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Jul 17, 2020 08:05:07   #
David Martin Loc: Cary, NC
 
jerryc41 wrote:
Right! Everyone should be injected with the virus. Let natural selection sort them out. Only the strong will survive, and we will have a better population. I think the White House considered this, but they couldn't get enough syringes and Covid doses produced, so they gave up on it.

Not a helpful comment.

cmc4214 wrote:
The more we slow the progression of this disease, the longer it will be around

Yes, if it spreads more rapidly, it will theoretically end more quickly. But at what cost?

The healthcare system has a set capacity, and if that capacity is overwhelmed, people will die due to lack of health care, who would have otherwise lived. There will also be people who do survive, but with more permanent damage than they would have otherwise sustained. This applies not just to Covid cases, but to all people needing hospital care. For example, accident victims, emergency surgery cases, heart attacks, cancer patients, etc.

Right now several hospital systems are warning that, due to uptick in Covid cases, they are nearing capacity.

Think of it like a dam on a lake. If water is let out of the dam slowly in controlled amounts, the situation remains stable. But if you suddenly open the dam wide, or collapse the dam, chaos will occur resulting in death and destruction.

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Note: posting politics outside of the Attic is against UHH rules. Users that bring politics into this discussion will have their accounts banned from replying in this topic. Repeated violations will lead to account suspension.
 
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