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Have you noticed the change in news coverage on the Confederate statues?
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Jul 2, 2020 11:09:25   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
rehess wrote:
Washington and Jefferson did not fight against the "Stars and Stripes".


I think we all know very well that the issue is not about traitors, but about slave owners. We are pandering to less than 15% of the population by pursuing all that P.C. nonsense. Slavery was a terrible institution but it's now forbidden, and OVER. I personally am willing to vote to pay reparations to any U.S. citizen that can provide documentary proof they he or she was ever a slave. The rest of the group that claims to be in some way harmed by the slavery practiced in the past; note, that's actual physical or financial harm, not being offended, should get in step with the rest of us and help us overcome the ravages of the Covid 19 virus and the ensuing financial crises for so many.

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Jul 2, 2020 11:09:48   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
Kmgw9v wrote:
This country is falling apart—right before our eyes.
Not because of what was discussed in the opening post of this thread.
Aside from the pandemic, and a doomed economy; the growing tribal hatred will destroy us. When we should be working together to control the pandemic, and subsequently restore the economy; we are self-destructing in a cauldron of hate. Too bad for our grandchildren


YES!!!!

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Jul 2, 2020 11:13:29   #
Carusoswi
 
Frank T wrote:
There are no statues of Hitler and thats the reason no one remembers WWII.


Memory of Hitler is not dependent upon statues, and, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, there are plenty who remember WWII, those that fought, those who died, those whose family members died, those who survived the holocaust, and those who choose to deny their recall of the facts. The last mentioned are a danger to this democracy.

Caruso

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Jul 2, 2020 11:14:45   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
rehess wrote:
Yes, the Democrats will have to re-examine their heroes from the past, and decide which features still make them "heroic". For example, Andrew Jackson's fame was as an "Indian Fighter" - in those days, he had conflict with home-boy Davy Crockett, who went west to some place called "The Alamo". Jackson and Crockett feuded in home-state Tennessee over how Jackson had treated the natives. I'm guessing Crockett will look a lot better now.

Republican William Henry Harrison also gained fame as an "Indiana Fighter", but he isn't much of a hero these days.
Yes, the Democrats will have to re-examine their h... (show quote)


I am 1/4 Creek. I suppose my ancestors were 'white men fighters' but we're all in the same leaking boat now, and we'd better forget our differences and start bailing together or we're all gonna drown.

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Jul 2, 2020 11:17:21   #
Alafoto Loc: Montgomery, AL
 
Longshadow wrote:
They removed the statue of Christopher Columbus in Columbus, Ohio.

Begs the question:
Will they also rename the city since that's for who the city is named?


No, they'll tear it down, just like the statue.

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Jul 2, 2020 11:18:53   #
Carusoswi
 
Longshadow wrote:
They removed the statue of Christopher Columbus in Columbus, Ohio.

Begs the question:
Will they also rename the city since that's for who the city is named?


As a life long Buckeye, I would advocate for renaming. The discovery of America by Columbus was erroneously attributed to him. He was not first to discover America, and he mistakenly assumed that America was India, duh.

What a bumbling hero was he.

Yes, I would advocate for renaming the home of the Buckeyes.

Caruso

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Jul 2, 2020 11:24:30   #
lARRY1 Loc: southern nc
 
rehess wrote:
I am the greatgrandson of a Union Soldier.
He never fought against the "Stars and Stripes".
I am proud of CNN and MSNBC {I don't watch Fox}.
Except for battlefields and inside museums, Rebel statues should go!



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Jul 2, 2020 11:31:14   #
Carusoswi
 
OlinBost wrote:
Again, those who ignore history are the ones who will repeat it. Where would the African Americans be if there was no slavery?


They would be free or otherwise in their native countries untouched by white supremacists.

This country would be free from having to deal with a civil war and Jim Crow Laws and the current BLM protests, the '60's marches, and on and on. Do you suggest that slavery actually benefited the slaves?

Please, tell me it is not so.

Generations later, it is absurd to advocate that descendants return to Africa, to regions totally unknown to them. Do you dare to advocate for that?

What, exactly, is it that you propose in your post?

Should native Americans return to the land from which their ancestors came? Would you advocate for that?

Should ancestors of slaves, forced into less than free labor, simply shrug their shoulders and accept the fact that they were duped into labor without pay. Do you really advocate for forced, unpaid labor. What exactly are you trying to say???

Please, enlighten us.

Caruso

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Jul 2, 2020 11:36:40   #
Carusoswi
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
Actually one of the complaints was that the government wasn’t enforcing the federal law that required escaped slaves be returned to their owners. They were complaining about Northern states not following the law.


So, unjust and ruthless laws deserve enforcement? It was, after the emancipation proclomation, in many southern states illegal for "coloreds" to sit in the front of the bus, to eat at 'white' diners, to use 'non-colored' restrooms or water fountains, to vote, to marry outside of their race (forget that many bi-racial products of slave owner sex abuse were among the persons of color).

What, exactly, are you trying to say in your post?

Caruso

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Jul 2, 2020 11:41:29   #
Carusoswi
 
Fotoartist wrote:
Shouldn't we disband the Democrat party, the party that founded the KKK, the party of Jim Crow, and the party of anti-segregation in the 50s and 60s?


If that party still advocated for the positions you suggest, perhaps so. However, in today's world, those former democrats have switched their allegiance to the Republic party (reference LBJ and his administration).

So, are you advocating for truth in America, or some voodoo nomenclature that will further your anti-America agenda?

What, exactly, are you trying to say?

Caruso

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Jul 2, 2020 11:57:22   #
Carusoswi
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
Actually one of the complaints was that the government wasn’t enforcing the federal law that required escaped slaves be returned to their owners. They were complaining about Northern states not following the law.


"They were complaining about Northern states not following the law."

. . . because the law was wrong. In general, the law during Jim Crow required 'coloreds' to use separate water fountains and bathrooms, to ride in the back of the bus, to attend less funded, segregated schools, to be refrained from seeking higher education, to marry outside their race (forget that that bottle was uncorked due the commonplace of rape of black women by their previously legal slave owners).

The law previous to the above required freedom seeking escaped slaves to be returned to their 'masters.' You seem to think that being a law makes that law right. How do you feel about the English tax laws that resulted in the Boston tea party? On which side do you cast your allegiance?

You must be aware that the space race was won in no small part to the contribution of brilliant mathematically gifted women of color who manually confirmed trajectories that not only propelled John Glenn into space, but supported our efforts to land a man on the moon (or, perhaps you believe that the space program was just another trumpian hoax).

So, what, exactly, are you trying to say in your post?

Caruso

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Jul 2, 2020 12:10:18   #
mjmoore17 Loc: Philadelphia, PA area
 
Amtrain wrote:
I was born on the South and am damned proud of that fact. Equally proud am I of my ancestors some of which fought for the South during the War.
For the last couple of years, I have watched monuments dedicated to Lee, Jackson, Stewart, and other generals fall at the hands of a ruthless mob or at the hands of cowardly administrations in city halls and on college campuses. After the monuments to the generals came down, next came the statues to the common soldiers.
At the time, America was warned that if you allowed these statues to be destroyed, the next thing you would know, these anarchist would come after the statues of Washington and Jefferson.
The retort was, "Oh that will never happen!" Well guess what? ... not only did these idiots destroy the statues to Washington, but also down came statues of Grant, Lincoln, the 54th Mass. Colored Troops and a number of abolitionist.
It is obvious that the people who have called for desecration of these monuments could not tell you who fought durning the War Between the States much less the motives of the participants. The true motive behind their actions was not the debasement of Confederate monument but the desecration of everything America.
Within the last two weeks, after the profanation of the Jefferson monuments, I have notice a major change in the narrative of the news media's (this includes Fox) description of the Confederacy. Before, the new outlets would say the statues of Confederate soldiers were bad and needed to be removed because the South fought for slavery (not a 100% correct analysis) but now the new claim is that they need to be removed because the Confederates were traitors.
The spineless news outlets have changed their tune because they now cannot defend Washington and Jefferson because they too owned slaves. They cannot condemn the Confederates and not do the same for these founding fathers. They had to do a "one-up" by now calling them traitors.
You can bet that the day Robert E. Lee declined the offer of Gen. Winfield Scott the position of commanding General of all US forces, the farthest thought on Lee's mind was that of a traitor.
Shame on all you houses CNN, (BS)NBC and Fox.
I was born on the South and am damned proud of tha... (show quote)


Po lil boy, no one wants to support your racist views. These traitors belong in a museum. Most of these statues are recent history not made in 1870’s.

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Jul 2, 2020 12:38:07   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
Carusoswi wrote:
Memory of Hitler is not dependent upon statues, and, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, there are plenty who remember WWII, those that fought, those who died, those whose family members died, those who survived the holocaust, and those who choose to deny their recall of the facts. The last mentioned are a danger to this democracy.

Caruso


You seemed to miss the point. The poster was pointing out that statues have nothing to do with remembering history. None of these confederate statues were put there to remember history. They were actually put up specifically to intimidate blacks, many of which were very successful after the Civil War. The 1890’s and the early part of last century saw rise to the KKK and Jim Crow laws and these statues.

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Jul 2, 2020 12:42:21   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
Carusoswi wrote:
"They were complaining about Northern states not following the law."

. . . because the law was wrong. In general, the law during Jim Crow required 'coloreds' to use separate water fountains and bathrooms, to ride in the back of the bus, to attend less funded, segregated schools, to be refrained from seeking higher education, to marry outside their race (forget that that bottle was uncorked due the commonplace of rape of black women by their previously legal slave owners).

The law previous to the above required freedom seeking escaped slaves to be returned to their 'masters.' You seem to think that being a law makes that law right. How do you feel about the English tax laws that resulted in the Boston tea party? On which side do you cast your allegiance?

You must be aware that the space race was won in no small part to the contribution of brilliant mathematically gifted women of color who manually confirmed trajectories that not only propelled John Glenn into space, but supported our efforts to land a man on the moon (or, perhaps you believe that the space program was just another trumpian hoax).

So, what, exactly, are you trying to say in your post?

Caruso
"They were complaining about Northern states ... (show quote)


Wow, you totally missed my point. I was saying that the Civil War was 100% about slavery. I agree it was a bad law. My point was to those that say it v was about state rights. Claiming that the Civil War was about state rights is revisionist history.

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Jul 2, 2020 12:52:12   #
Amtrain
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
If you don’t think the Civil War was 100% about slavery I’d love to hear your analysis of what it was about.


In one word: TARIFFS

Slavery was part of the Southern economy, an agrarian economy, but the entire Northern economy was TOTALY reliant on the Southern economy (including slavery) to thrive. The mills in the North relied heavily on Southern cotton or the raw materials to operate. The North was not blameless in its part in perpetuating the entire US economic structure.

Additionally, and this is the important part, the South relied on the being able to export her products to Europe. Just as had happened during the Boston Tea Party with an increase in taxes on the tea, an inordinately high tariff was being levies on the South connected to the exports. The North only did a pittance of exporting vs. that of which the South did. Southerners saw the amount of taxation on those exports as a direct slap in the face. All this had been brewing for years, it came to a head in 1860 when the North invaded not to stop slavery but to make sure they did not lose the tax revenue it was getting off Southern products.

May I suggest you take a couple of minutes to read this 2017 article by Jonathan Clark? I think he explains much better than I could the reason for the War.

https://medium.com/@jonathanusa/everything-you-know-about-the-civil-war-is-wrong-9e94f0118269

In 1789 the Treaty of Paris ended the hostilities between Great Britain and the newly formed US. This document established that the 13 states then in existence, were SOLVENT STATES. The document made it explicitly clear that the states had the right to secede if the US government became abusive of its powers. The states and not the US government were the principals set forth in this treaty. In 1860 the South saw the US government's policies as abusive and seceded. May I quote from the Declaration of Independence: "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..." This was not a new idea. As early as 1814, states mostly in the North, had contemplated secession.

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