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Get This Through Your Thick Skulls
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Jul 1, 2020 17:17:08   #
Delderby Loc: Derby UK
 
pendennis wrote:
I appreciate your medical training. However, you should already know that viruses do not kill directly. They always compromise a weakened organ system, attacking organs which are unable to resist the viral invasion. Having suffered polio in 1952, I've studied its origins, causes (both mythical and logical), and have again suffered from post-Polio Syndrome.

The actual death rates from Wuhan are quite low. In fact as of 6/24/20 only 169 people under age 25 have died during the entire pandemic. That's microscopically low.

Additionally the survival rate is rather high, around 99.9%. That's hardly as deadly as the 1918 influenza pandemic. According to researchers at Stanford and UC Davis, Wuhan will penetrate until it reaches @ 75%. After that, it simply weakens and fails to penetrate further. COVID viruses like MERS and SARS

Further, death rates are measured as a percentage of the total infection rates. And according to the same Stanford and UC Davis folks, the total infection rates are 40x-50x diagnosis rates. To run those numbers, it means the total penetration rate runs to 100-120 million people.

The 1918 pandemic is estimate to have killed in the neighborhood of 50-100 million people, leaning toward the higher end. 675,000 people died from pneumonia, heart disease, pulmonary, and renal failure, after influenza infection.

Don't take my word. Read "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History, by John Barry. It's a very well and thoroughly written.

This pandemic has been fatally politicized. Dr. Fauci's daily waffling, and China's abject criminal behavior in hiding it are just two examples.
I appreciate your medical training. However, you ... (show quote)


1918 compared with today was the dark ages. Medical knowledge (and care) was almost non-existent.

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Jul 1, 2020 17:56:46   #
amyinsparta Loc: White county, TN
 
rplain1 wrote:
If you want to get a point across to people, try not insulting your readers in the title.


Sometimes insults are the only way to get someone's attention.

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Jul 1, 2020 18:22:24   #
David Martin Loc: Cary, NC
 
pendennis wrote:
you should already know that viruses do not kill directly.

Viruses kill by infecting and killing host cells, infecting and damaging other host cells, triggering an immune response which might eradicate the virus or might overshoot with detrimental effects to the host (see "cytokine storm"), and by lowering host's resistance to secondary infection. The combination of which may result in organ malfunction, organ failure, and death of the host.

When a virus causes manifestations that lead to death, we say that the cause of death was the virus. Without the viral infection, the host would not have died. The manifestations caused by the virus, which in the case of Covid-19 may include heart failure, heart attack, pneumonia, respiratory failure, cytokine storm, kidney failure, stroke, blood clot, etc., are all listed as secondary causes of death.

In the same way that a person sustaining a gunshot wound to the chest, who bleeds out and dies, has the cause of death listed as gunshot wound, and blood loss listed as a secondary factor. Here is a good explanation:

"The cause of death is the disease or injury that produces the physiological disruption inside the body resulting in death, for example, a gunshot wound to the chest. The mechanism of death is the physiological derangement that results in the death."

Saying that a virus does not "directly" cause death, is splitting hairs between the cause of death and the mechanism of death. In the end, the culprit is the virus, without which neither illness nor death would have occurred.

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Jul 1, 2020 18:39:35   #
oregonfrank Loc: Astoria, Oregon
 
Again, thank you Dr Martin for clarifying this issue. Frank

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Jul 1, 2020 19:02:57   #
Glenn Harve
 
And if one aquires no immunities, what happens? Answer: you die. Its not as simple as some try to push upon others. This is especially true if your paychecks are not funded by the public systems. IE: All those hard workin "thick skulls" that are forced to pay for the thin skinned thin skulled elitism. There are those who must feed their families, and take risks everyday to do so.
Perhaps a thin skull seems logical, if you want to live in Bubble Boy's gov-funded world. In the real world, you will get crushed like an eggshell.

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Jul 1, 2020 19:13:37   #
CWGordon
 
Glenn: What?

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Jul 1, 2020 19:45:19   #
Cookie223 Loc: New Jersey
 
TriX wrote:
What makes you think they are Democrats? Seems to me the chief Republican is the one refusing to wear a mask and model good behavior, and the RNC is insisting on a mass, indoor packed convention without masks. Now we’ve turned a medical issue into a political issue once again.

And no, regardless of their party (assuming they actually vote), the destruction of our downtown (Raleigh NC) is NOT OK with me and neither are mass gatherings of unmasked participants.


The hardest hit cities, and states are under Democratic control, so I took a wild guess!

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Jul 1, 2020 19:45:20   #
pendennis
 
oregonfrank wrote:
My logic is that if the person would otherwise still be alive without the Covid, then the additional factor of Covid infection is what caused the death. Also, in cases where healthy persons die from Coven infection I would assume it was the presence of the virus that caused death. I’m sure there are cases where people die from accidents when one could make the argument that a pre-existing condition was exacerbated by the accident, so the injuries from the accident really did not do the killing.
Frank
My logic is that if the person would otherwise sti... (show quote)


Death is a process which moves forward due to a number of factors. When a virus invades, attacking the weakest of the organs, it sets in place a process which leads to death in some instances. Viral pneumonia is one reaction, and it's really hard to treat. Patients often have to be put on ventilators, and if left on too long are unlikely to come away healthy; roughly 80-85% don't survive. Same holds true for renal failure. Dialysis sometimes becomes a one-way treatment, with the kidneys being permanently damaged. Damage to motor nerves also occurs.

The virus is an underlyer, but an otherwise "healthy" person will die from renal, cardiovascular, pulmonary, etc. failure. There's always a cause of death.

There are any number of vehicle incidents where the crash did not cause death. A medical trauma such as a heart attack, stroke, etc., can cause death, resulting in an accident. However, the "accident" is not the cause of death in those instances. Happens all the time. When that happens, a medical examiner or coroner does an autopsy and determines the cause of death.

Right now, there is a huge amount of controversy as to cause of death. Medical examiners, as noted in Scientific Magazine, tend to list heart failure, e.g., as a primary cause, Wuhan as a secondary cause, with underlying conditions such as diabetes, etc. as terciary.

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Jul 1, 2020 19:54:36   #
Cookie223 Loc: New Jersey
 
Kozan wrote:
Most people are idiots. Maybe you have to insult them. Masks and social distancing should be mandated by the government. The older people get it, but younger generations will not let anyone interfere with their lifestyle.


You are a 100% correct! The schools have been preparing the youth of today to think towards Socialism, and Communist for a long time. That’s why we have these problems today.

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Jul 1, 2020 19:56:08   #
Cykdelic Loc: Now outside of Chiraq & Santa Fe, NM
 
David Martin wrote:
I do know. And I've read a bit about infectious diseases, including viral.
Four years of medical school, 3 years of internal medicine specialty training, 3 additional years of subspecialty training, and 35 years as a practicing physician.

You are simply wrong in what you have stated.



Let me add that the last time I looked 42% of all COVID-19 deaths have taken place in nursing homes and assisted living facilities. Also note that many/most were marched to their deaths by Democrat governors.



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Jul 1, 2020 20:07:43   #
oregonfrank Loc: Astoria, Oregon
 
pendennis wrote:
Death is a process which proceeds due to a number of factors. When a virus invades, attacking the weakest of the organs, it sets in place a process which leads to death in some instances. Viral pneumonia is one reaction, and it's really hard to treat. Patients have to be put on ventilators, and if left on too long are unlikely to come away healthy. Same holds true for renal failure. Dialysis sometimes becomes a one-way treatment, with the kidneys permanently damaged.

The virus is an underlyer, but an otherwise "healthy" person will die from renal, cardiovascular, pulmonary, etc. failure. There's always a cause of death.

There are any number of vehicle incidents where the crash did not cause death. A medical trauma such as a heart attack, stroke, etc., can cause death, resulting in an accident. However, the "accident" is not the cause of death in those instances. Happens all the time. When that happens, a medical examiner or coroner does an autopsy and determines the cause of death.
Death is a process which proceeds due to a number ... (show quote)


Your explanation seems at odds with Dr Martin’s above. Paraphrasing, he said that the agent causing the disruption or stress (the virus) is deemed the cause of death, and that the already weakened system or organ that failed is deemed a secondary cause. Is this issue a matter of disagreement within the medical community? My view is that if the individual would not have otherwise died absent a Covid infection, then the primary cause of death would be the virus. Frank

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Jul 1, 2020 20:18:22   #
SteveR Loc: Michigan
 
pendennis wrote:
I appreciate your medical training. However, you should already know that viruses do not kill directly. They always compromise a weakened organ system, attacking organs which are unable to resist the viral invasion. Having suffered polio in 1952, I've studied its origins, causes (both mythical and logical), and have again suffered from post-Polio Syndrome.

The actual death rates from Wuhan are quite low. In fact as of 6/24/20 only 169 people under age 25 have died during the entire pandemic. That's microscopically low.

Additionally the survival rate is rather high, around 99.9%. That's hardly as deadly as the 1918 influenza pandemic. According to researchers at Stanford and UC Davis, Wuhan will penetrate until it reaches @ 75%. After that, it simply weakens and fails to penetrate further. COVID viruses like MERS and SARS

Further, death rates are measured as a percentage of the total infection rates. And according to the same Stanford and UC Davis folks, the total infection rates are 40x-50x diagnosis rates. To run those numbers, it means the total penetration rate runs to 100-120 million people.

The 1918 pandemic is estimate to have killed in the neighborhood of 50-100 million people, leaning toward the higher end. 675,000 people died from pneumonia, heart disease, pulmonary, and renal failure, after influenza infection.

Don't take my word. Read "The Great Influenza: The Story of the Deadliest Pandemic in History, by John Barry. It's a very well and thoroughly written.

This pandemic has been fatally politicized. Dr. Fauci's daily waffling, and China's abject criminal behavior in hiding it are just two examples.
I appreciate your medical training. However, you ... (show quote)


Explain how we catch colds.

Reply
Jul 1, 2020 20:45:05   #
Glenn Harve
 
If doctors were never wrong, they would all agree, but they do not. If this virus has taught us one thing its that doctors are not definative sources, no matter what they think of themselves. Ive never seen more disagreement, nor more political subterfuge in the "medical community".

Reply
Jul 1, 2020 20:51:13   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Cookie223 wrote:
The hardest hit cities, and states are under Democratic control, so I took a wild guess!


You mean like Texas, Florida and Arizona?

Reply
Jul 1, 2020 22:09:10   #
Scruples Loc: Brooklyn, New York
 
David Martin wrote:
Viruses kill by infecting and killing host cells, infecting and damaging other host cells, triggering........


Dear Dr. Martin: I would like to thank you for writing sensibly in response to the Flood of Ignorance that has befallen a great many. As a pharmacist I too attempt to help as many people understand the complexities of infectious diseases. However, we can offer our knowledge and experience to enlighten others. But, many refuse to follow clear and well defined guidelines. I can only enlighten those who wish to be so. So be it. We must do our best as we were trained.

On another note, It is nice to know that there are others here like myself who are hobbyists.

To all who are reading, be well; stay safe!

Happy Shooting!

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