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Reflex/Holograph sights
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May 2, 2020 15:19:30   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
wdross wrote:
You are correct that one does not need a dot sight to shoot BIF. But number of keepers increases almost two fold for me. Why shoot at 50% or less when one can shoot at double that with a dot sight? It is a lot less frustrating and a lot more fun to shoot at the higher rate. My vote is for the dot sight, hands down.


Congratulations to you for your improvement with the gadget. I have a keep rate better than 99 % with out it. But I have had lots of experience in shooting birds in flight.

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May 2, 2020 15:24:51   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
Blaster34 wrote:
Thanks wdross, I see it more like a 'Heads Up Display' where you can use both eyes to follow the subject without using the OVF/EVF, just looking through the 'HUD'....thinking it might work well on a gimbal mount....just a thought.


I use mine without a tripod. Not that tripods are not useful. I upgrade my tripod situation 3 years ago. But I bought the Olympus system specifically so I would not have to always take a tripod. My first useage of the EE-1 dot sight was a half Triathlon my grandson was in. I was shooting slow speed shots and getting nowhere fast with the viewfinder. Then I remembered I had brought along my brand new EE-1. Without ever having used it before, I put it on and what a relief! I knew that my shot percentage went up and later review provided the proof. It was just that simple. I went from frustration to elation in the time it took to put it on. And slow speed sport tends to be harder than BIF. One has to train the dot, in one place, on the subject longer than BIF.

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May 2, 2020 15:25:30   #
Jerry Coupe Loc: Kent, WA
 
wdross wrote:
The only real requirement for these types of sights is the ability to pan somewhat smoothly. If your shoulder will allow you to pan, then there is a chance it would be helpful. Depending on how cooperative your shoulder is will determine how useful a sight, specifically the EE-1 for you, would be.


Thanks for the feedback. I will have to explore this option some more.

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May 2, 2020 15:28:24   #
Geegee Loc: Peterborough, Ont.
 
Blaster34 wrote:
Are you using a Picatinny rail? Mounting a 'small' picatinny rail on a Arca-Swiss plate then attaching the sight to the rail would seem to be a stable mounting option.


Yes, I am using a picatinny rail. Drill and tap a 1/4-20 thread through the rail and fix a simple cold shoe so it can be attached to the camera's hotshoe. These cold shoes have a 1/4-20 bolt attached and come with two knurled nuts. Use red loc-tite to fix the bolt to the rail so it will never move.

I do not use the dot sight for near objects so any slight parallex misalignment does not matter. The dot sight is on the camera is not intended for precision aiming but only for more easily finding BIF. Some talk about focusing on the eye of a BIF but I don't think many are capable of doing that. See my previous response regarding focusing.

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May 2, 2020 15:32:30   #
Geegee Loc: Peterborough, Ont.
 
billnikon wrote:
Same to you my friend. Same thing for your post. At least mine was factual, yours was truly SNARKY.
There are a LOT of people out there who like gadgets, including me.
Over time, I have bought my share, and like many gadgets I have owned, most are no longer in use. Some folks who have bought this gadget, no longer use it because it really gets in the way more than it is helpful. Some folks have employed it and continue to use it. I have never had the need for such a gadget.
And further, neither do all of the 50 + folks I shoot with in Florida's wetlands.
In fact, over the past 5 years shooting around over thousands of photographers, I have only seen one, and at the time that young lady was not using it to photograph the fast flying Anhinga's that were zooming past us.
Same to you my friend. Same thing for your post. A... (show quote)


I can't understand why you are so vehemently opposed to a dot sight if you have never even used one.

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May 2, 2020 15:48:36   #
Blaster34 Loc: Florida Treasure Coast
 
Geegee wrote:
Yes, I am using a picatinny rail. Drill and tap a 1/4-20 thread through the rail and fix a simple cold shoe so it can be attached to the camera's hotshoe. These cold shoes have a 1/4-20 bolt attached and come with two knurled nuts. Use red loc-tite to fix the bolt to the rail so it will never move.

I do not use the dot sight for near objects so any slight parallex misalignment does not matter. The dot sight is on the camera is not intended for precision aiming but only for more easily finding BIF. Some talk about focusing on the eye of a BIF but I don't think many are capable of doing that. See my previous response regarding focusing.
Yes, I am using a picatinny rail. Drill and tap a... (show quote)


Thank you Geegee for the info and the specifics, heading in that direction.

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May 2, 2020 16:22:52   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
artesdecobo wrote:
My nickel's worth.

I have used the Olympus EE-1 Dot Sight for two years and it has definite applications for BIF (which is my preferred subject matter).

Here is how I use the device. I calibrate the sight for the anticipated acquisition range for my subject. Using BBF, I usually pre-focus at that approximate distance which assists the camera autofocus system by eliminating significant focal adjustments. When my subject appears at acquisition range, I point the dot at the bird, mash BBF and start shooting. Note that there is no attempt made to verify focus lock through the lens. This is a "trust me" technique. On my Nikon D850, I also am using the 3D tracking mode which allows the tracking point to move across the entire frame.

What you gain using this method is to reduce subject acquisition lag time, i.e., the time it takes you to locate the bird looking through the lens, then focus, then shoot. Looking exclusively at the dot sight, I reckon you can increase your acquisition time by at least 1-2 seconds which can be critical for BIF. Additionally, looking exclusively at the dot sight allows for easier tracking of the moving subject.

Please note: The best autofocus situation for BIF are those wherein the bird is crossing left to right or vice versa at a relatively constant focal distance. Birds coming directly towards you are the hardest for you autofocus to overcome. Additionally, this technique is most effective when there is no competing background which can drag off the autofocus. A clear sky background is best.

Contrary to some comments, the sight does require calibration because the sight mounted on the hot shoe is a few inches higher than the lens, which creates a parallax problem. Think of railroad tracks. They are parallel but at distance (infinity) they seem to merge together. The problem is, our subject must be captured much closer than infinity. Therefore we must adjust the dot sight such that the line it is pointed along intersects the line where the centerline of the lens is pointed. The line where your lens is looking cannot be adjusted. But the line where the dot is pointed can be adjusted so these two lines intersect at some distance in front of the lens, i.e., your anticipated subject acquisition distance. Of course the dot sight can be adjusted left/right as well as vertically. Calibration is a simple process and can be done somewhat accurately without a tripod. Simply point the dot at a specific spot at anticipated subject distance and hit BBF without looking through the lens. Then look through the lens and see if your aim point is in focus. If not, you need to adjust (calibrate) where the dot is pointed.

Here is an example one application for using the sight. Suppose I desire to capture hummingbirds at a feeder 15 feet away but I don't desire to have the feeder in my picture. By observation, I know the hummers frequently hover at a position very near the feeder, then land on the feeder and drink, then fly to the hover position again and again. I have a 400mm lens and my camera is set with a high manual shutter speed to stop wing motion (1/5000th). I have manually selected f/7.1 to create background blur for my crop, therefore I have a very shallow DOF. ISO is set to Auto. I could pre-focus at the anticipated hover spot and simply shoot when the bird goes there (without any re-focus attempt) but any actual bird hover variance in focal distance will result in an out of focus shot. Or, I could use the dot sight and when the bird hovers, put the dot on the bird, hit BBF and simultaneously start shooting. I can calibrate the dot sight on the feeder, which is at approximate acquisition range.

I apologize for this lengthy answer, but the dot sight does have limited application. My wildlife photo partner came up with a different solution. He mounted a red holographic hunting dot sight directly to his lens. This turned out to be cheaper than my Olympus product plus, by mounting directly to the lens, he almost eliminated the parallax problem and subsequent calibration issue.

Bubba
My nickel's worth. br br I have used the Olympus... (show quote)


Now I know what I am doing differently. I have set my dot sight to be parallel to the axis of the lens. I aim and shoot with the dot about three and a half inches above the subject shooting point no matter how close or far the subject is from me. And I move the dot about three and a half inches to the viewsight side when shooting vertical. Now I understand what everyone is talking about when they say they have to recalibrate all the time. Different strokes for different folks I guess. I just have never thought about setting the viewsight for a specific distance. I have mine "set" for every distance.

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May 2, 2020 16:24:40   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
Geegee wrote:
I can't understand why you are so vehemently opposed to a dot sight if you have never even used one.


I have not used several things I feel I just do not need.
I have over 40 years of professional photography experience. I have photographed in almost every kind of environment.
I never said I had never experimented with a sight.
I shoot in Florida wetlands and in Pennsylvania woodlands, I am always close to the pray I shoot, by experience and design.
If I sighted my images before or after reaching the camera to my eye I would have missed my chance to get the moment in time I needed. I keep my camera on the subject through my eye, it is the only way you can feel part of the action. I like to feel one with the pray I shoot. It is just the way I shoot.
I like, when possible, to put spot focus on the eye of my pray, a site would just get in the way, my mind is going 90 miles an hour with focus, composition, exposure compensation, and subject movement, there is just no time for the added time necessary for a site.
For those that this gadget works for, that is all well and good. For me, it just does not fit into my shooting style.

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May 2, 2020 16:24:50   #
Dik
 
Verryl wrote:
What am I missing in the "follow the bird in flight?" Doesn't the red dot need a nearby background to reflect off of to adjust the aim onto the flying bird? If one could put the red dot directly on the bird instantly, why would you need it?

Verryl


No it does not project a dot onto the subject like a laser does. It's a large window, optical viewfinder, with a moderately wide field of view. The dot is projected onto the viewfinder lens. I'm sure there are U Tube videos showing it in use.

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May 2, 2020 16:35:12   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
billnikon wrote:
Congratulations to you for your improvement with the gadget. I have a keep rate better than 99 % with out it. But I have had lots of experience in shooting birds in flight.


But is that near 100% rate with or without a tripod? I do not know about the others on this site, but most of the time I am moving around with no time for setting up a tripod. If I am off trail or traveling abroad, a tripod becomes a liability and extra weight rather than a help.

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May 2, 2020 16:48:22   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
wdross wrote:
But is that near 100% rate with or without a tripod? I do not know about the others on this site, but most of the time I am moving around with no time for setting up a tripod. If I am off trail or traveling abroad, a tripod becomes a liability and extra weight rather than a help.


I shoot without a tripod. I never use one, they get in the way where I shoot. And I am just more comfortable for me without it. One moment I am standing up, the next I am leaning over pointing my camera down, then I am on my stomach using a low camera angle to get a week old Sand Hill Crane Colt taking a dragon fly from it's mother. In an effort to blur the background and so the background will not be in the shot you have to hand hold, there is no time to set down a tripod and get the shot.
If I had a tripod I would have missed the shot.



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May 2, 2020 17:06:03   #
Magaliaman Loc: Magalia, CA
 
wdross wrote:
That is were the differences between the gun site and the dot sights are. No distance calibration and can be view from a fairly wide angle. I comes down to what one is willing to pay for. Absolutely nothing wrong with your setup. You have my vote for doing it yourself.


Oh there IS a distance and windage adjustment, but you need an allen wrench and the time necessary to make adjustments. Considering the parallax effect, I dont think ANYTHING can be perfect or quickly adjustable unless it was actually looking thru the lens somehow.

-Gary

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May 2, 2020 17:26:36   #
Properframe Loc: US Virginia
 
I use a red dot for Spring training to help smooth panning and tracking. It is easier and develops good technique. I do not use it in the filed because it IS DISTANCE DEPENDENT. If I dial in and adjust the sight for 50 yards and then a Heron at 15 yards the dot will not be aligned with the camera focal point.
I have been meaning to test it to see what the variance is for every ten yards to see if it is material.
Here is something explaining the angle issue and I see someone else responded they use CONSTANT method. I can't imagine always aligning the dot 3 inches OVER the focal spot but like anything I guess it could be learned. Photography is easier as you can discard wind and gravity issues.
Unfortunately the accompanying images did not copy. The Zero is an angle that meets at the target. Constant offset is like a set of train tracks that never meet.
------PASTE STARTS HERE --------
What is “Zero?”

Generally, shooters will zero their weapon sights – whether it is a laser, an optical sight or something else – for a certain distance. What does this mean? Picture the trajectory of the projectile as it leaves the muzzle of a firearm. Disregarding bullet drop, wind, atmospheric conditions and things of that nature, the trajectory should be roughly along a line parallel to the center axis of the barrel. Ideally, to target where the projectile will impact, the shooter would want to sight along that trajectory.

The line of sight for a scope or iron sights is a straight line between the shooter’s eye and one or more points in the sight. That straight line is a bit easier to visualize for a laser sight. Since sights are typically placed above, below or to the side of a firearm’s barrel rather than looking down it, something called parallax is introduced. Due to this offset, the line of sight and the center axis of the barrel are almost – but not quite – parallel. At some point downrange, where the two lines intersect, is where the sights are zeroed.

Pistol Zero

The image above shows this concept. Zeroing a sight for a certain distance is easy enough to understand and accomplish but, as you can see, at ranges other than the distance for which the sight is zeroed, the point of impact (POI) will vary from the point of aim (POA). In this example at closer ranges the round would impact above the laser dot while rounds fired at longer distances would impact below the laser dot. The further the target is away from the zero distance, the further the POA will be from the POI. Greater distance between the center axis of the barrel and the sight will increase the severity of the POA vs POI difference because the angle between the two lines will be greater.

An Alternative – Constant Offset

There is an alternative configuration for laser sights that is popular with some shooters that eliminates the problem of the sights only being accurate at one distance. The downside is that they are not entirely accurate at any distance. The upside, however, is that the inaccuracy is the same at all distances (again, disregarding wind, bullet drop, etc.).

Pistol Parallel

The image above shows the constant offset scheme in which the line of sight is parallel to the barrel’s center axis. You can see that the line of sight never intersects the line of the bullet trajectory, so the projectile will never impact where the laser dot is. However, since the lines are parallel, regardless of the distance the point of impact will be the same distance, h, above the laser dot. Of course, in the real world, there is bullet drop so gravity will eventually pull the projectile down across the laser beam. According to this ballistic chart, assuming a 2″ distance between the barrel axis and the laser aperture, that will happen somewhere after 50 yards (150 feet) – much, much farther than the average defensive firearm situation which happens between 0 and 21 feet. At these distances, bullet drop is less than bullet diameter.

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May 2, 2020 17:37:39   #
Magaliaman Loc: Magalia, CA
 
Properframe wrote:
I use a red dot for Spring training to help smooth panning and tracking. It is easier and develops good technique. I do not use it in the filed because it IS DISTANCE DEPENDENT. If I dial in and adjust the sight for 50 yards and then a Heron at 15 yards the dot will not be aligned with the camera focal point.
I have been meaning to test it to see what the variance is for every ten yards to see if it is material.
Here is something explaining the angle issue and I see someone else responded they use CONSTANT method. I can't imagine always aligning the dot 3 inches OVER the focal spot but like anything I guess it could be learned. Photography is easier as you can discard wind and gravity issues.
Unfortunately the accompanying images did not copy. The Zero is an angle that meets at the target. Constant offset is like a set of train tracks that never meet.
------PASTE STARTS HERE --------
What is “Zero?”

Generally, shooters will zero their weapon sights – whether it is a laser, an optical sight or something else – for a certain distance. What does this mean? Picture the trajectory of the projectile as it leaves the muzzle of a firearm. Disregarding bullet drop, wind, atmospheric conditions and things of that nature, the trajectory should be roughly along a line parallel to the center axis of the barrel. Ideally, to target where the projectile will impact, the shooter would want to sight along that trajectory.

The line of sight for a scope or iron sights is a straight line between the shooter’s eye and one or more points in the sight. That straight line is a bit easier to visualize for a laser sight. Since sights are typically placed above, below or to the side of a firearm’s barrel rather than looking down it, something called parallax is introduced. Due to this offset, the line of sight and the center axis of the barrel are almost – but not quite – parallel. At some point downrange, where the two lines intersect, is where the sights are zeroed.

Pistol Zero

The image above shows this concept. Zeroing a sight for a certain distance is easy enough to understand and accomplish but, as you can see, at ranges other than the distance for which the sight is zeroed, the point of impact (POI) will vary from the point of aim (POA). In this example at closer ranges the round would impact above the laser dot while rounds fired at longer distances would impact below the laser dot. The further the target is away from the zero distance, the further the POA will be from the POI. Greater distance between the center axis of the barrel and the sight will increase the severity of the POA vs POI difference because the angle between the two lines will be greater.

An Alternative – Constant Offset

There is an alternative configuration for laser sights that is popular with some shooters that eliminates the problem of the sights only being accurate at one distance. The downside is that they are not entirely accurate at any distance. The upside, however, is that the inaccuracy is the same at all distances (again, disregarding wind, bullet drop, etc.).

Pistol Parallel

The image above shows the constant offset scheme in which the line of sight is parallel to the barrel’s center axis. You can see that the line of sight never intersects the line of the bullet trajectory, so the projectile will never impact where the laser dot is. However, since the lines are parallel, regardless of the distance the point of impact will be the same distance, h, above the laser dot. Of course, in the real world, there is bullet drop so gravity will eventually pull the projectile down across the laser beam. According to this ballistic chart, assuming a 2″ distance between the barrel axis and the laser aperture, that will happen somewhere after 50 yards (150 feet) – much, much farther than the average defensive firearm situation which happens between 0 and 21 feet. At these distances, bullet drop is less than bullet diameter.
I use a red dot for Spring training to help smooth... (show quote)


I Never considered a CONSTANT Offset, however, maybe with practice it would be something you could adjust to on the fly. It has some merit IMHO.

Thank You for the insight
-Gary

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May 2, 2020 18:51:02   #
jeffcisp
 
Nikon makes one; it's called a DOT Sight and intended to be used with CoolPix P1000. Allows you to track the target by eye even when lens has extremely small FOV.

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