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Reflex/Holograph sights
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May 2, 2020 13:31:52   #
Magaliaman Loc: Magalia, CA
 
Blaster34 wrote:
Thanks Gary, glad its working well for you. My question is that the reticle is just a point is on the glass and if calibrated to the focus mode, ie, center focus, flexible spot, the distance shouldn't be an issue since the focus point of the camera and sight reticle are always aligned (as long as you don't move the flexible spot to the extremes).


One would think that's true, but my experience has been otherwise. A good example would be this: Hold your finger a foot or so from your eye. Close your right eye and look, now close your left eye and look. The point jumps correct? That's because of the difference in the center point of your left vs right eyes. The amount of that Jump changes as the object moves nearer or further away. Now sight a doorknob 30 feet away. It doesn't appear to jump as much.

The same thing Happens with your Red dot sight, only the difference is the center point is higher and lower (not left and right like the example of your eyes.) The camera is looking thru the lens which is usually a few inches Lower than your Red Dot. Therefore distance DOES affect where your focus point really is. Especially if your trying to focus on a birds eye at 850mm.

My advice is try it. It works, it helps, but its not the "end all" perfect solution to BIF. It's just another tool in the bag, but it doesn't make every shot a keeper.

I Suspect if you had a point and shoot or rangefinder type camera where your not actually looking thru the lens itself, the rangefinder viewer would be physically closer to the red dot sight and therefore have a lesser effect on distance.

-Gary

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May 2, 2020 13:39:39   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
johngault007 wrote:
If you are replying thinking I was asking a sarcastic question, I wasn't.

After reading most of the discussion I learned something that I didn't know before. Well, until you came into the discussion and provided nothing except snarky comments.


Cheers


Same to you my friend. Same thing for your post. At least mine was factual, yours was truly SNARKY.
There are a LOT of people out there who like gadgets, including me.
Over time, I have bought my share, and like many gadgets I have owned, most are no longer in use. Some folks who have bought this gadget, no longer use it because it really gets in the way more than it is helpful. Some folks have employed it and continue to use it. I have never had the need for such a gadget.
And further, neither do all of the 50 + folks I shoot with in Florida's wetlands.
In fact, over the past 5 years shooting around over thousands of photographers, I have only seen one, and at the time that young lady was not using it to photograph the fast flying Anhinga's that were zooming past us.

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May 2, 2020 13:46:39   #
Blaster34 Loc: Florida Treasure Coast
 
Magaliaman wrote:
One would think that's true, but my experience has been otherwise. A good example would be this: Hold your finger a foot or so from your eye. Close your right eye and look, now close your left eye and look. The point jumps correct? That's because of the difference in the center point of your left vs right eyes. The amount of that Jump changes as the object moves nearer or further away. Now sight a doorknob 30 feet away. It doesn't appear to jump as much.

The same thing Happens with your Red dot sight, only the difference is the center point is higher and lower (not left and right like the example of your eyes.) The camera is looking thru the lens which is usually a few inches Lower than your Red Dot. Therefore distance DOES affect where your focus point really is. Especially if your trying to focus on a birds eye at 850mm.

My advice is try it. It works, it helps, but its not the "end all" perfect solution to BIF. It's just another tool in the bag, but it doesn't make every shot a keeper.

I Suspect if you had a point and shoot or rangefinder type camera where your not actually looking thru the lens itself, the rangefinder viewer would be physically closer to the red dot sight and therefore have a lesser effect on distance.

-Gary
One would think that's true, but my experience has... (show quote)


Concur about the parallax Gary but if the sight and the lens are calibrated at whatever distance, presumably within the preferred range you'd be shooting (~100 yds) and the reflex dot is placed anywhere within the focus area, the camera should acquire focus. Again we're not talking about 1 moa as we would for shooting sports, 3, 4 or greater moa would seem appropriate for cameras....seems for less than $100 I could get the A-S mount, the Picatinny Rail and a decent holographic sight and try it....Cheers

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May 2, 2020 14:01:05   #
Magaliaman Loc: Magalia, CA
 
Blaster34 wrote:
Concur about the parallax Gary but if the sight and the lens are calibrated at whatever distance, presumably within the preferred range you'd be shooting (~100 yds) and the reflex dot is placed anywhere within the focus area, the camera should acquire focus. Again we're not talking about 1 moa as we would for shooting sports, 3, 4 or greater moa would seem appropriate for cameras....seems for less than $100 I could get the A-S mount, the Picatinny Rail and a decent holographic sight and try it....Cheers
Concur about the parallax Gary but if the sight an... (show quote)


You are 100% Correct. If you're distance is calibrated to 100 yards, and (within some tolerance) you aim at a bird in that range, the red dot sights are extremely accurate. Plus the best thing is they give you some situation awareness. But what happens when that bird just appears at 50 yards, or even 150 yards when you're dialed in at 100? That's where I find the red dot lacking. Its just not something you can adjust immediately, and its hard to compensate by the "seat of your pants" on a moments notice.

If I were you I'd do it, but don't expect it to be a perfect solution to BIF photography.

-Gary

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May 2, 2020 14:05:10   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
promfh wrote:
The problem with the reflex site on a camera is that your eye doesn’t stay in the same place relative to the site and the front of the camera. When the site is mounted on a rifle you have a spot weld that you keep your head on the stock of the rifle at the same place so that it’s in line with the rest of the the site line. With the camera I found I would move my head from side to side because there was no fixed position to place my head. Putting the camera on a shoulder stock would help with this problem.
The problem with the reflex site on a camera is th... (show quote)


Never had that problem with the Olympus EE-1. One's eye does not need to be perfectly inline with the sight/lens axis. It is designed to allow for one's eye being a little off axis.

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May 2, 2020 14:05:33   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
Magaliaman wrote:
You are 100% Correct. If you're distance is calibrated to 100 yards, and (within some tolerance) you aim at a bird in that range, the red dot sights are extremely accurate. Plus the best thing is they give you some situation awareness. But what happens when that bird just appears at 50 yards, or even 150 yards when you're dialed in at 100? That's where I find the red dot lacking. Its just not something you can adjust immediately, and its hard to compensate by the "seat of your pants" on a moments notice.

If I were you I'd do it, but don't expect it to be a perfect solution to BIF photography.

-Gary
You are 100% Correct. If you're distance is calib... (show quote)


Some good thoughts. I personally would not attempt to shoot a bird at 150 yards or even 100 yards. The result would mean extensive cropping and quality image loss.
I shoot much closer than that, my max. range would be 100 feet. I like to put as many pixels on the bird as I can. That is why I do not need this gadget.
However, I do appreciate those that like and use them. But for me, they are ineffective at best.

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May 2, 2020 14:07:50   #
Blaster34 Loc: Florida Treasure Coast
 
Magaliaman wrote:
You are 100% Correct. If you're distance is calibrated to 100 yards, and (within some tolerance) you aim at a bird in that range, the red dot sights are extremely accurate. Plus the best thing is they give you some situation awareness. But what happens when that bird just appears at 50 yards, or even 150 yards when you're dialed in at 100? That's where I find the red dot lacking. Its just not something you can adjust immediately, and its hard to compensate by the "seat of your pants" on a moments notice.

If I were you I'd do it, but don't expect it to be a perfect solution to BIF photography.

-Gary
You are 100% Correct. If you're distance is calib... (show quote)


Thanks Gary, I personally would prefer to keep both eyes open when attempting to follow targets rather than looking through an OVF with one eye.....either way it takes practice, practice, practice.

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May 2, 2020 14:11:13   #
Magaliaman Loc: Magalia, CA
 
billnikon wrote:
Some good thoughts. I personally would not attempt to shoot a bird at 150 yards or even 100 yards. The result would mean extensive cropping and quality image loss.
I shoot much closer than that, my max. range would be 100 feet. I like to put as many pixels on the bird as I can. That is why I do not need this gadget.
However, I do appreciate those that like and use them. But for me, they are ineffective at best.


In ideal conditions I agree with you totally. Although sometimes (See pic) you have to shoot under less than ideal circumstances. 925' for this picture.


(Download)

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May 2, 2020 14:20:23   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
promfh wrote:
The problem with the reflex site on a camera is that your eye doesn’t stay in the same place relative to the site and the front of the camera. When the site is mounted on a rifle you have a spot weld that you keep your head on the stock of the rifle at the same place so that it’s in line with the rest of the the site line. With the camera I found I would move my head from side to side because there was no fixed position to place my head. Putting the camera on a shoulder stock would help with this problem.
The problem with the reflex site on a camera is th... (show quote)


Never had that problem with the Olympus EE-1 sight. One's eye does not need to be perfectly inline with the sight/lens axis. One's eye can be slightly off axis and the dot still stay in place on the target.

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May 2, 2020 14:34:51   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
billnikon wrote:
It is a gadget that folks who like gadgets buy. It is not necessary for bird photography.


You are correct that one does not need a dot sight to shoot BIF. But number of keepers increases almost two fold for me. Why shoot at 50% or less when one can shoot at double that with a dot sight? It is a lot less frustrating and a lot more fun to shoot at the higher rate. My vote is for the dot sight, hands down.

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May 2, 2020 14:39:55   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
billnikon wrote:
Says the guy who doesn't want extra weight on his camera, and besides, I can see the bird through my viewfinder when I bring the camera up to my eye. I do not need confirmation that I can see it, I CAN see it. Why would I need a sight to see what I can already see.
Besides that, I use, what is called, (Tracking expandable spot large) on my Sony a9, once I see the bird without having to put a colored dot on the bird, the camera puts it's on own spot on it and tracks it for me, does it in the camera, do not need a manual sighting tool, I have an automatic one in the camera. It is called an advanced focusing system. You should try it.
Besides, my keep rate is almost 100%. Bottom line is, if you don't need a sight, why buy one Dik?
Below Dik, is a shot taken without a sight, just the camera.
Says the guy who doesn't want extra weight on his ... (show quote)


That sounds like you have to use a tripod. Can you get a 80% keeper rate without a tripod? That is what the Olympus EE-1 eyesight is for. It is for sport capture without a tripod of any sort.

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May 2, 2020 14:48:16   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
Dik wrote:
Try one, and you will buy it. It's only $140 or so. The Olympus Dot Sight weighs near nothing compared to the camera and lens, and eliminates losing the bird in the viewfinder.

Almost 100% keep rate for BIF? What do the ten frames on either side of that shot look like, keeper rate wise.


I hate to say it, but I haven't tried that yet. And I own an Olympus E-M1mkII that has the ProCapture on it. Thanks for reminding me to use all of my camera's abilities.

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May 2, 2020 14:54:15   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
Verryl wrote:
What am I missing in the "follow the bird in flight?" Doesn't the red dot need a nearby background to reflect off of to adjust the aim onto the flying bird? If one could put the red dot directly on the bird instantly, why would you need it?

Verryl


The Olympus EE-1 is a "projected" dot that remains in the view sight and is not a laser beam that shines on the target. The camera still does all the focusing.

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May 2, 2020 14:56:43   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
tlmly wrote:
Based on personal experience, I would strongly advise using a “tube” style red dot sight rather than an “open” style. My first experiment was with the open style. It worked well against a darker background but following a bird against a bright sky did not. The red dot was barely visible against the sky. Switching to the tub style made a huge difference with dot visibility in all light conditions. Perhaps I did not get a good enough open style sight and there might be some that are more visible against a bright background, but I would try to test it first. For clarification about the two styles to which I referred see:

https://sightmark.com/blog/index.php/2019/01/17/open-or-tube-reflex-sights-which-type-of-red-dot-sight-should-i-buy/
Based on personal experience, I would strongly adv... (show quote)


There is a brightness switch on the Olympus. Bright sky or background are no problem.

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May 2, 2020 15:02:27   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
Magaliaman wrote:
I Made mine from a $12.00 Red Dot Sight, and a Picatinny rail & Cold Shoe mount I purchased off eBay.
Yes, you have to make adjustments to the sight initially, but the most difficult thing (to me at least) Distance accuracy changes. If you're using it for BIF, and trying to get directly on the eye of the bird good luck. Left and Right accuracy is perfect, but remember the sight isn't in line with the center of the lens, its usually a few inches higher and therefore distance changes things a lot sometimes. Now if I spent hundreds of dollars for this, I'd be disappointed. But I have less than $20.00 in mine, and it works perfect as long as I shoot Birds within the distance I've calibrated the sight for.

-Gary
I Made mine from a $12.00 Red Dot Sight, and a Pic... (show quote)


That is were the differences between the gun site and the dot sights are. No distance calibration and can be view from a fairly wide angle. I comes down to what one is willing to pay for. Absolutely nothing wrong with your setup. You have my vote for doing it yourself.

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