Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Check out Street Photography section of our forum.
The Attic
The human cost of Trump's delayed response to the coronavirus.
Page <<first <prev 7 of 9 next> last>>
Apr 14, 2020 16:29:26   #
JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.
 
LWW wrote:
Isn’t that what you said he had the authority to close?


Show me where I said that.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 16:30:09   #
JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.
 
LWW wrote:
How did he do too little too late if he didn’t have the authority to do it at all?


Show me where I said he did, or should have done, something out of his authority?

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 18:47:54   #
LWW Loc: Banana Republic of America
 
JohnFrim wrote:
Show me where I said he did, or should have done, something out of his authority?


I’m trying to get you to give straight answers at all.

Reply
 
 
Apr 14, 2020 19:04:21   #
boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander
 
JohnFrim wrote:
No, Trump should just admit that he wasted many weeks of time doing diddly-squat when he could have done something. Even revving up industry via the DPA to replenish the SNS that he knew was inadequate would have been better than nothing.

Foresight is difficult. But blind hindsight is unforgivable.

I suggest that you look for the advice that the greatest infectious disease specialists gave Trump, In the early stages of the problem. You just might learn that Trump was following their advice. Should those specialists have given better advice? Yes. You haters all ways complain that Trump pays no attention to experts. But when he doe, you also complain,=. You want it both ways--Heads I Win, Tails You Lose should be your motto.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 20:01:41   #
yhtomit Loc: Port Land. Oregon
 
JohnFrim wrote:
QUESTION: What was the human cost of the Trump administration’s delay in instituting measures to curb community spread of the coronavirus?

ANSWER: Thousands of times more deaths than necessary.


Dr Fauci recently (12 Apr) acknowledged that an earlier response could have saved lives:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/politics/donald-trump-anthony-fauci-tweet/index.html

"I mean, obviously, you could logically say that if you had a process that was ongoing and you started mitigation earlier, you could have saved lives," Fauci, said on "State of the Union" when asked if social distancing and stay-at-home measures could have prevented deaths had they been put in place in February, instead of mid-March.

"Obviously, no one is going to deny that. But what goes into those decisions is complicated," added Fauci, who is a key member of the Trump administration's coronavirus task force. "But you're right, I mean, obviously, if we had right from the very beginning shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then."


Note: Dr Fauci today (13 Apr) explained his response to Tapper as being a true answer to a hypothetical question, but that clarification in no way negates his statement.


So just what was the human life cost of delaying the social distancing measures (which have unequivocally proven to be effective in “flattening the curve")?

Infection data from February are not very reliable due to sporadic, insufficient and inaccurate testing. But by early March testing/reporting was significantly improved, and the quality and quantity of data was much better. There is no reason to believe that the virus was spreading differently in February compared to March.

As expected of pandemics, the spread of the virus has followed an exponential growth rate prior to the implementation of mitigation measures. The graph below shows the actual number of cases (symbols) of coronavirus infection over the first 21 days of March (source: www.worldometers.info). The data follows an exponential growth (straight line on a log plot) with a doubling time of 2.385 days (the line).

For simplicity, a doubling time of 2.5 days means the number of cases would multiply as follows:

0 day pick any starting number of cases
2.5 days 2X
5 days 4X
7.5 days 8X
10 days 16X
15 days 64X
20 days 256 X
.
.
.
30 days 4096 X

Going back to the best-fit doubling rate of 2.385 days, a two (2) week delay means nearly 60 times the number of cases; in 3 weeks the number of cases increased by nearly 450 times.

You can do the math yourself to validate the result:

3 Mar 124 cases
24 Mar 55,222 cases

55,222 / 124 = 445 X

Shortly after 24 March the curve of number of cases has been starting to flatten or deviate from the exponential growth. This means that the doubling time has increased (lengthened) as a result of the social distancing measures.

Trump’s restrictions on flights from China implemented on 31 Jan probably had a positive impact in reducing the number of cases early on. However, Trump only acknowledged the severity of the threat in mid-March when he declared a national emergency, and social distancing measures were only recommended days later. That means effectively 6 weeks of squandered time!!!

Today the number of infected people stands at over 586,000. So much for “only 15 cases and they are all getting better.”

There is absolutely no doubt that earlier implementation of mitigation measures by the Trump administration would have saved lives. Trump’s inaction throughout the month of February and early March has resulted in THOUSANDS OF TIMES more infections than necessary.

Someone should be held accountable. With any luck the voters will speak up in November.
QUESTION: What was the human cost of the Trump adm... (show quote)


cnn the soothe sayer speaks...you listen.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 20:10:16   #
JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.
 
LWW wrote:
I’m trying to get you to give straight answers at all.


And I am trying to get you to just say what is on your mind instead of trying to coerce me to way what you want to say using my keyboard.

Just put up or shut up and stop the silly games.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 20:11:56   #
JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.
 
yhtomit wrote:
cnn the soothe sayer speaks...you listen.


The analysis and graphics I presented are my own, not from CNN. The piece I quoted from CNN was just to set the stage that time matters. Your statement has no basis.

Reply
Check out Travel Photography - Tips and More section of our forum.
Apr 14, 2020 21:16:06   #
Tex-s
 
JohnFrim wrote:
QUESTION: What was the human cost of the Trump administration’s delay in instituting measures to curb community spread of the coronavirus?

ANSWER: Thousands of times more deaths than necessary.


Dr Fauci recently (12 Apr) acknowledged that an earlier response could have saved lives:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/politics/donald-trump-anthony-fauci-tweet/index.html

"I mean, obviously, you could logically say that if you had a process that was ongoing and you started mitigation earlier, you could have saved lives," Fauci, said on "State of the Union" when asked if social distancing and stay-at-home measures could have prevented deaths had they been put in place in February, instead of mid-March.

"Obviously, no one is going to deny that. But what goes into those decisions is complicated," added Fauci, who is a key member of the Trump administration's coronavirus task force. "But you're right, I mean, obviously, if we had right from the very beginning shut everything down, it may have been a little bit different. But there was a lot of pushback about shutting things down back then."


Note: Dr Fauci today (13 Apr) explained his response to Tapper as being a true answer to a hypothetical question, but that clarification in no way negates his statement.


So just what was the human life cost of delaying the social distancing measures (which have unequivocally proven to be effective in “flattening the curve")?

Infection data from February are not very reliable due to sporadic, insufficient and inaccurate testing. But by early March testing/reporting was significantly improved, and the quality and quantity of data was much better. There is no reason to believe that the virus was spreading differently in February compared to March.

As expected of pandemics, the spread of the virus has followed an exponential growth rate prior to the implementation of mitigation measures. The graph below shows the actual number of cases (symbols) of coronavirus infection over the first 21 days of March (source: www.worldometers.info). The data follows an exponential growth (straight line on a log plot) with a doubling time of 2.385 days (the line).

For simplicity, a doubling time of 2.5 days means the number of cases would multiply as follows:

0 day pick any starting number of cases
2.5 days 2X
5 days 4X
7.5 days 8X
10 days 16X
15 days 64X
20 days 256 X
.
.
.
30 days 4096 X

Going back to the best-fit doubling rate of 2.385 days, a two (2) week delay means nearly 60 times the number of cases; in 3 weeks the number of cases increased by nearly 450 times.

You can do the math yourself to validate the result:

3 Mar 124 cases
24 Mar 55,222 cases

55,222 / 124 = 445 X

Shortly after 24 March the curve of number of cases has been starting to flatten or deviate from the exponential growth. This means that the doubling time has increased (lengthened) as a result of the social distancing measures.

Trump’s restrictions on flights from China implemented on 31 Jan probably had a positive impact in reducing the number of cases early on. However, Trump only acknowledged the severity of the threat in mid-March when he declared a national emergency, and social distancing measures were only recommended days later. That means effectively 6 weeks of squandered time!!!

Today the number of infected people stands at over 586,000. So much for “only 15 cases and they are all getting better.”

There is absolutely no doubt that earlier implementation of mitigation measures by the Trump administration would have saved lives. Trump’s inaction throughout the month of February and early March has resulted in THOUSANDS OF TIMES more infections than necessary.

Someone should be held accountable. With any luck the voters will speak up in November.
QUESTION: What was the human cost of the Trump adm... (show quote)


Completely false to employ a hindsight fallacy. At the time you are professing Trump SHOULD have acted, a) China and the WHO were still spreading false info, b) NO nation had information on which to act, c) no national leader outside of South Korea saw reason to take big action (and SOKO just has a LOT of experience dealing with Chinese outbreak).

Additionally, c) when Trump halted Chinese inflow he was vilified as racist, xenophobic, etc. d) the same with Europe bans, e) the same with closing the southern border, and f) the same with the northern order. g) Deblasio was out suggesting the Trump actions were unwarranted well after the ban, and h) Pelosi was parading about Chinatown attempting to ridicule Trump for his previous actions.

Can a case be made that some specialist somewhere could have pushed harder, sooner? Sure. Is it possible that Trump was no less aware than say Spain or Italy? Nope. Considering the left tried to STOP the President, can anyone argue the left had it correct 8 weeks back. Not at ALL.

Rewriting the narrative now is nothing short of outright lies. The string of actual blame runs 1) Lying China, 2) Lying WHO, with number 3, your choice, at no more than .0000001% the liability of the first 2. Trying to suggest otherwise is just TDS manifesting, and believing such abject idiocy is evidence of terminal TDS.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 21:17:33   #
Angmo
 
We’ve got more ventilators than patients needing them.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 21:37:56   #
JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.
 
Tex-s wrote:
Completely false to employ a hindsight fallacy. At the time you are professing Trump SHOULD have acted, a) China and the WHO were still spreading false info, b) NO nation had information on which to act, c) no national leader outside of South Korea saw reason to take big action (and SOKO just has a LOT of experience dealing with Chinese outbreak).

Additionally, c) when Trump halted Chinese inflow he was vilified as racist, xenophobic, etc. d) the same with Europe bans, e) the same with closing the southern border, and f) the same with the northern order. g) Deblasio was out suggesting the Trump actions were unwarranted well after the ban, and h) Pelosi was parading about Chinatown attempting to ridicule Trump for his previous actions.

Can a case be made that some specialist somewhere could have pushed harder, sooner? Sure. Is it possible that Trump was no less aware than say Spain or Italy? Nope. Considering the left tried to STOP the President, can anyone argue the left had it correct 8 weeks back. Not at ALL.

Rewriting the narrative now is nothing short of outright lies. The string of actual blame runs 1) Lying China, 2) Lying WHO, with number 3, your choice, at no more than .0000001% the liability of the first 2. Trying to suggest otherwise is just TDS manifesting, and believing such abject idiocy is evidence of terminal TDS.
Completely false to employ a hindsight fallacy. A... (show quote)


Not false at all to use hindsight. It is the way to become informed of what is/was going on so that similar runaway scenarios can be prevented in the future.

First, the point of the post was to show how quickly exponential growth can make a bad situation worse. During that phase of the pandemic spread the starting number does not matter. What does matter is the time for doubling of the infection. This coronavirus doubled every 2.385 days; maybe the next one will be a week; or maybe a day.

Second, we don't have to discuss what Trump did or did not know in January or even early February. The multiplication factors are the same. So if there were 10 people early on, a few days later there would be 20. Who cares, right? No need to get excited. But a few weeks later the count is 4000, and that might be bothersome. But in just 2.5 days that will be 8000 cases. Holy crappo!!!!

Luckily the US seems to be past the rapid exponential growth phase and the doubling time has increased. As I write this the case count is over 600,000. Thank goodness for social distancing; otherwise before the end of the week the count would be well over 1,000,000. Just remember the number of deaths lags by a few weeks, so that number will continue to rise quickly for a few more days at least.

I still believe that, in hindsight, things could have been done better had Trump not been so dismissive of the situation several weeks ago. He cannot say he did not know about it and then claim that he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else and that he acted swiftly and effectively. The timelines just don't support that narrative.

At today's presser Trump walked back his absurd statement from yesterday that the president has absolute authority. It would be good to hear him say that his administration could have done better with the pandemic. It would be hard to tease such an admission of an error from his words, but you can be assured that the media would see it... and report on it at length. And... it would help humanize him.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 22:10:57   #
Tex-s
 
JohnFrim wrote:
Not false at all to use hindsight. It is the way to become informed of what is/was going on so that similar runaway scenarios can be prevented in the future.

First, the point of the post was to show how quickly exponential growth can make a bad situation worse. During that phase of the pandemic spread the starting number does not matter. What does matter is the time for doubling of the infection. This coronavirus doubled every 2.385 days; maybe the next one will be a week; or maybe a day.

Second, we don't have to discuss what Trump did or did not know in January or even early February. The multiplication factors are the same. So if there were 10 people early on, a few days later there would be 20. Who cares, right? No need to get excited. But a few weeks later the count is 4000, and that might be bothersome. But in just 2.5 days that will be 8000 cases. Holy crappo!!!!

Luckily the US seems to be past the rapid exponential growth phase and the doubling time has increased. As I write this the case count is over 600,000. Thank goodness for social distancing; otherwise before the end of the week the count would be well over 1,000,000. Just remember the number of deaths lags by a few weeks, so that number will continue to rise quickly for a few more days at least.

I still believe that, in hindsight, things could have been done better had Trump not been so dismissive of the situation several weeks ago. He cannot say he did not know about it and then claim that he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else and that he acted swiftly and effectively. The timelines just don't support that narrative.

At today's presser Trump walked back his absurd statement from yesterday that the president has absolute authority. It would be good to hear him say that his administration could have done better with the pandemic. It would be hard to tease such an admission of an error from his words, but you can be assured that the media would see it... and report on it at length. And... it would help humanize him.
Not false at all to use hindsight. It is the way t... (show quote)


I never said it was wrong to employ hindsight. I said it's wrong to use hindsight FALLACY to criticize anyone. I suggested you have to give higher marks to the President than to the leftists, as they criticized the action he did take. I also suggested that if you feel obligated to blame the President for what he did or did not do, you have to disperse MORE blame to the left who opposed his actions.

Reply
Check out Printers and Color Printing Forum section of our forum.
Apr 14, 2020 22:17:02   #
JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.
 
Tex-s wrote:
I never said it was wrong to employ hindsight. I said it's wrong to use hindsight FALLACY to criticize anyone. I suggested you have to give higher marks to the President than to the leftists, as they criticized the action he did take. I also suggested that if you feel obligated to blame the President for what he did or did not do, you have to disperse MORE blame to the left who opposed his actions.


OK, fair enough. There is plenty of blame that can be pushed onto the Dems and the media. They did jump on Trump for his actions on China and Europe.

But let's not make this a "but what about... " argument. Trump is not exonerated just because he shares the blame for a 'too little too late' response.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 22:22:58   #
bull drink water Loc: pontiac mi.
 
what about the 40k's he allowed ion after the ban?

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 23:01:17   #
yhtomit Loc: Port Land. Oregon
 
JohnFrim wrote:
The analysis and graphics I presented are my own, not from CNN. The piece I quoted from CNN was just to set the stage that time matters. Your statement has no basis.


There is no chaos or variables in your analysis.
I’m sorry to inform you your world is not perfect.

Reply
Apr 14, 2020 23:53:08   #
JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.
 
yhtomit wrote:
There is no chaos or variables in your analysis.
I’m sorry to inform you your world is not perfect.


You are correct in that I did not present the equation, and the notation I used in the graph legend is misleading.

The math is as follows:

NC is New Count
IC is Initial Count
Days is Days elapsed
DT is Doubling Time (in days)

The equation is NC = IC * 2 ^ (Days / DT)

Sorry about that.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 7 of 9 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Check out Sports Photography section of our forum.
The Attic
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.