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Image Brightness – What Affects It
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Mar 30, 2020 22:54:27   #
srt101fan
 
tomcat wrote:
Sorry, I did miss your question. I suppose that it's easy for me to do this because that's the way that I was taught many years ago and it comes 2nd nature. I can explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it. This concept is a reliance upon incident light falling on a subject and not reflective light, which is always at least ½ stop off under difficult lighting. You don't have to use this method if you don't want to---it's just a different way to "read" light and set your camera manually based upon several decades of tried and true physics.
Sorry, I did miss your question. I suppose that ... (show quote)


Thank you, tomcat. You assume I don't understand your method, but that has never been the issue. It's WHY should I use your method.....

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Mar 30, 2020 23:36:37   #
User ID
 
selmslie wrote:
Obviously you did not read where I already responded to his comment.

The problem is that your "simple" explanation was totally wrong and it revealed that you do not understand the concept of exposure value at all.

If you expose at 1/1000 sec and f/16 it does not matter whether the camera is aimed directly at the sun of if the lens cap is still on. It's the same exposure value. The presence of light has nothing to do with it.

Now go back to my first post and try to understand the subject. Until you have mastered that, please refrain from any further comments.
Obviously you did not read where I already respond... (show quote)


You post self explanatory clips from wiki and then pretend to explain them. Clearly it would be more helpful if you just post links and not attempt to play at teaching. I have seen your web site. You do much better at white papers than in interactive contexts. You should stick to that ... and although you don’t read carefully, I do wanna retract calling you illiterate. I can run the tests and plot those same H&D curves, etc etc but to help other users is different than snowing them with data and charts.

Example would be that LV and EV are the same scales just like C sharp and D flat are two names for the exact same note. The reason to use the correct name can be shown in both cases ... but it affects zero change to the images or the music. Advanced practitioners in both endeavors will care, but it matters not at all to the crafts nor the results.

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Mar 30, 2020 23:38:38   #
yorkiebyte Loc: Scottsdale, AZ/Bandon by the Sea, OR
 
selmslie wrote:
Completely wrong.

Higher EV means less exposure - faster shutter speed and/or smaller aperture. You only need to look at the table to see that this is obvious:



Higher EV means you are letting in less light.

It seems that this concept is over your head.

Leave you camera set on Auto everything, go to the back of the class and put on your dunce cap. You are not qualified to participate in this thread.
Completely wrong. br br Higher EV means less expo... (show quote)


Wow... real nice. Hope you feel better about yourself now... you should be an Administrator on this site so we don't have to read about all these lacks that KNOW NOTHING about taking a picture or how to use a camera! ...Off with their heads! Just think... you could just ban all those idiots that don't follow your instructions or do things differently than your correct way!!
~ Please, keep this thread going with you AWESOMENESS!

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Mar 30, 2020 23:52:10   #
tomcat
 
srt101fan wrote:
Thank you, tomcat. You assume I don't understand your method, but that has never been the issue. It's WHY should I use your method.....


You can use it if you want to get better and more accurate exposures. That's the only reason why. You might not have to do any pp for exposure, because the images should be dead-on accurate. It always gave me much better exposures when the meter was fooled by the reflected light. That's basically it. I don't have to do any EC because I'm reading the light falling on the subject.

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Mar 31, 2020 00:06:08   #
aellman Loc: Boston MA
 
selmslie wrote:
There are several factors that influence the brightness of an image:

1. The brightness of the light
2. The reflective properties of the subject
3. The aperture
4. The shutter speed
5. The ISO

The first and most important is the brightness of the incident light. It can be quantified as Light Value (LV). For example, the brightness of full sunlight during the middle of the day in temperate or tropical latitudes can be considered nearly constant. For reasons that will soon be apparent, let’s assign it a value of 15.

* Taken from the Wikipedia article on Exposure value where you can find additional information.

The second factor is the reflective properties of the objects in the scene, how much of the incident light is reflected. This ranges from very high (for snow, white clouds, white paint or white feathers it can be 90% or more) to very low (a pile of coal might reflect 10% or less). But you want to render these subjects as bright and dark. Your camera's meter will try to render them as middle gray. That would be wrong.

Here is how we end up at LV=15.

Shutter speeds starting at 1 second are given a value of 0. Each doubling of the shutter speed increases that value by one:

For longer shutter speeds the value becomes negative.

Apertures starting at f/1 are given a value of 0.


When you combine the value for the shutter speed with the value for the aperture you get the Exposure Value (EV):


ISO values starting at ISO 100 are given a value of 0.


When you combine exposure value with value for the ISO you get the Light Value (LV).

LV 15 is substantially in agreement with Sunny 16 which recommends 1/ISO sec @ f/16 - LV=14.67.

Since the value for ISO 100 is 0, the exposure value table for ISO 100 can be used as a light value table.

Knowing all of this you can learn to set your ISO and exposure without looking at your meter.
There are several factors that influence the brigh... (show quote)


Many of us did that for years, with the early film SLRs and other vintage cameras, without knowing anything about LVs. I and many of my colleagues could estimate exposures within 1 stop based purely on experience.

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Mar 31, 2020 04:22:25   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
User ID wrote:
You post self explanatory clips from wiki and then pretend to explain them. Clearly it would be more helpful if you just post links and not attempt to play at teaching. I have seen your web site. You do much better at white papers than in interactive contexts. You should stick to that ...

Since you took the time to look at my publications you have realized by now that the source of the information in the initial post was myself. It was taken from the first page of my explanation of the Exposure Triangle Calculator which you can download here. If I had simply directed everyone to that article most people would have ignored it.

Your initial response was:
User ID wrote:
Another tempest in a teapot brought to us by “the usual suspects@.

I ignored that until you started to post your own misinformation along with other insulting comments that were totally uncalled for.

In the future, when you come across information that is new to you, you should refrain from commenting. If you don't understand it, don't shoot the messenger.

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Mar 31, 2020 04:37:05   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
aellman wrote:
Many of us did that for years, with the early film SLRs and other vintage cameras, without knowing anything about LVs. I and many of my colleagues could estimate exposures within 1 stop based purely on experience.

One of the benefits of film, especially negative film, it that does not blow out the diffuse highlights abruptly like happens with digital capture.

I cover this difference in Film vs. Digital Characteristic Curves

Both film and digital have a great deal of latitude for exposure. Digital can be underexposed by one stop and negative film overexposed by one stop without doing any visible harm to the recorded image. On the contrary, this may actually be beneficial since it gives you cleaner digital highlights and more shadow detail with film.

But you need to be more careful with transparency film or when you want a good JPEG straight from the camera.

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Mar 31, 2020 08:56:36   #
tomcat
 
selmslie wrote:
One of the benefits of film, especially negative film, it that does not blow out the diffuse highlights abruptly like happens with digital capture.

I cover this difference in Film vs. Digital Characteristic Curves

Both film and digital have a great deal of latitude for exposure. Digital can be underexposed by one stop and negative film overexposed by one stop without doing any visible harm to the recorded image. On the contrary, this may actually be beneficial since it gives you cleaner digital highlights and more shadow detail with film.

But you need to be more careful with transparency film or when you want a good JPEG straight from the camera.
One of the benefits of film, especially negative f... (show quote)


"Back in the days" when I was exclusively shooting slide film, I would always underexpose by ½ stop to really make the images pop. With a slide projector and a screen the pictures would almost have a 3-D effect and seem to jump off the screen----sigh!! I miss the good old days, but the only way to share was with a slide show party because the home computer wasn't invented then.

If I had the time, I would still shoot the transparencies, scan them, and post. But there's a lot involved in home developing and processing the slide film and time spent scanning. I'm 72 now and with several thousand images from vacations pending, I just cannot do it. I wish I had a teenager in the house that I could train and enslave them to do the work--ha.

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Mar 31, 2020 09:13:15   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
tomcat wrote:
"Back in the days" when I was exclusively shooting slide film, I would always underexpose by ½ stop to really make the images pop. With a slide projector and a screen the pictures would almost have a 3-D effect and seem to jump off the screen----sigh!! I miss the good old days, but the only way to share was with a slide show party because the home computer wasn't invented then. ...

Slide film was designed to be projected onto a good screen in a darkened room. Scanned and displayed it looks almost as good.

Most of us shot Kodachrome at 1/3 stop darker than the box indicated to bring down the highlights a little and make the mid-tones just a little richer.

We didn't obsess over shadow detail. It was usually there if we looked closely but often pure black was a better background.


Athens, July, 1980 - late afternoon sunlight - Kodachrome 25 (Sunny 16 exposure for ISO/ASA 32)

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Mar 31, 2020 10:27:41   #
tomcat
 
selmslie wrote:
Slide film was designed to be projected onto a good screen in a darkened room. Scanned and displayed it looks almost as good.

Most of us shot Kodachrome at 1/3 stop darker than the box indicated to bring down the highlights a little and make the mid-tones just a little richer.

We didn't obsess over shadow detail. It was usually there if we looked closely but often pure black was a better background.


Athens, July, 1980 - late afternoon sunlight - Kodachrome 25 (Sunny 16 exposure for ISO/ASA 32)
Slide film was designed to be projected onto a goo... (show quote)


Wow!!! After all this time, it is still a great preservation....ah. the days of Kodachrome 25. I didn't shoot much Kodachrome. A lot of my stuff back then was travel in the western NC mountains and San Francisco, so I used Ektachrome 160/320 quite a lot. This really takes me back and I wax nostalgic over my early stuff. I may just dig out the projector this weekend (hope the bulb still burns). Thanks for sharing.

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Mar 31, 2020 12:58:02   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
tomcat wrote:
Wow!!! After all this time, it is still a great preservation....ah. the days of Kodachrome 25. I didn't shoot much Kodachrome. A lot of my stuff back then was travel in the western NC mountains and San Francisco, so I used Ektachrome 160/320 quite a lot. This really takes me back and I wax nostalgic over my early stuff. I may just dig out the projector this weekend (hope the bulb still burns). Thanks for sharing.

That's one of the nice things about Kodachrome. If you store the slides carefully they are nearly archival.

I have a slide taken nearly seventy years ago that is as well preserved as the one above from 1980. I won't post it because it's personal.

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Mar 31, 2020 13:35:55   #
User ID
 
selmslie wrote:


In the future, when you come across information that is new to you, you should refrain from commenting. If you don't understand it, don't shoot the messenger.


You have yet to post anything thaz new to me ... here or on your site. As to the messenger, sad to say that in your case the messenger IS the problem, not the ideas. You’re careless in reading replies which leads you to defensively argue with folks who are in agreement. You are accurate about what you have to say but careless about what others have to say. Seems quite self centered of you, which acoarst provokes you and results in threads that are highly entertaining but quite low in utility.

But anywho ... On with the Show ... Break a Leg ... the roar of the greasepaint and the smell of the crowd !

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Mar 31, 2020 14:02:52   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
User ID wrote:
You have yet to post anything thaz new to me ...

Really? How's your short term memory? You have forgotten your statement on page 2:
User ID wrote:
Higher EV does NOT mean lower exposure even tho it involves smaller apertures and faster shutter speeds.

EV is not a camera setting or series of camera settings. EV is a statement of the available amount of light. Higher EV means more light.

You obviously had no clue about the meaning of EV. EV has nothing to do with the amount of available light.

Now go back to my original post and don't come back until you understand the concept of EV.

Then you may apologize.

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Apr 5, 2020 10:34:24   #
Flash Falasca Loc: Beverly Hills, Florida
 
thanks at 70 years old and covid-19 going around I don't think I have time to understand it !! thank you anyway !!

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Apr 5, 2020 12:31:54   #
Steve DeMott Loc: St. Louis, Missouri (Oakville area)
 
Here's what I understand about EV & LV through this post.

LV refers to how bright a subject is and that on any particular clear day at noon this value changes very little.

EV is the exposure setting on the camera. For a LV, lets say 15, the camera settings could be any one of many different combinations of aperture and shutter speed that give the correct exposure. Example: 1/2000 @ f/4, 1/1000 @ f/5.6, 1/500 @ f/8 etc.
All of these settings will provide a correct exposure providing ISO remains @ 100. Here EV = LV @ ISO 100.

All this made since until you threw in the ISO factor.

You Said; "When you combine exposure value with value for the ISO you get the Light Value (LV).".
If the ISO changes, say from 100 to 200, that's 1 stop less. So you've changed the EV number from 15 to 14 @ ISO 200. Your LV number should not change because the brightness of the light have not changed.

Do I have this correct or did I miss something?

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