Mongo Loc: Western New York

Jaackill, not trying to depreciate anything you say, but there is another side. Some secondary school athletes love it when someone other than their parents are taking pictures. Flash makes that obvious.

In a dimly lit gym, it can be difficult to stop action without a flash. New cameras have high quantum efficiency sensors and with brighter gyms today, flash isn't often necessary. But I have had players ask me why I am not taking pictures, because my flash doesn't go off.

I don't use flash because it doesn't improve what I am able to capture enough to make it worth the effort, if it improves things at all.

It is nice that we have photographers who are respectful of their subjects.

Mongo Loc: Western New York

Very good point!

ratjones

To Jaackil: Your comment is VERY true if you are trying only to record a game for your own personal use... However, there are STILL pro year book companies that demand their photogs use flash for some sports (including basketball)... There is a huge difference in quality btw no flash/flash images - yearbooks demand the players' faces be perfectly lit - hence manditory flash fill (except in instances where schools or refs prohibit use of flash... like BB playoff games or champion contests, volleyball games, gymnastics, cheer competition, etc.) Some venues on the college level (Rutgers - NJ) have built in ceiling strobes that their house photogs can synch into - and some photogs actually set up strobes on lightstands at one or both basket ends high up over the basket to compliment the ambient light and not interfere with player concentration. Most school officials or refs will have absolutely no problem with on camera flash for regular basketball games as long as the photog is a hired vender (yearbook)- and as long as there are NO flash photos taken during foul shots. That all being said - if the gym is brightly lit - I personally would prefer no flash using my Nikon Z6 with very high ISO capabilities -as long as players faces are properly lit with the available ambient lighting... Waiting for flash recycle sucks during high energy athletic contests! :-)

dick ranez

Check the lighting - most high school gyms use fluorescent and are not overly bright. Set you ISO to at least 1600 (more if your camera can handle it) and use a shorter fast lens. I find an 85 f1.8 (would love the faster one) is fine for courtside shots (occasionally use a 50 f1.4) if you're in the first couple of rows or have the freedom to move around courtside. If you have to shoot from a balcony or away from the action, the 70-200 may be useful, but in general I find it too long for indoor sports. Shooting basketball or volleyball indoors is always fun and you can get some wonderful results even away from the ball.

Jaackil Loc: Massachusetts

First of all what proffesional photography company can’t shoot in a gym with out flash? I don’t care how dark it is with proffesional equipment they can shoot well over 12,000 iso and get crisp images. I would be very Leary of any vendor who does not know how to shoot sports without flash. The other issue is unless you are using very powerful strobes the range of the light is not far enough. If you know anything about the rules of light fall off you know the further away from the source the intensity of the light falls of exponentially. So if you use those powerful strobes court side you are going to blind anyone close to them. Any photographer who has $5000 a strobe has the money for good equipment that would not need strobes. Speedlights are not powerful enough to throw enough light 30 feet to even be useful. Again you are just going to distract players and have them seeing spots.
Arena strobes are a completely different thing that a flash. I know because I shoot in venues where I can use them. They are set high up in the ceiling and they shoot down. In most locations unless you are looking right at them you have no idea they are going off. Players will never notice them. They are not perceptible to the human eye unless you are looking at them. A flash at floor level or arena level will distract players and spectators. I don’t know of a single high school and up athletic event that allows flash photography and I have been shooting high school, college pro sports and jr hockey for more than 20 years now. So that vendor you speak of should not be shooting sports. Why would shooting free throws be any different than a player throwing a pass or taking a shot? If I were the visiting team I would have a serious issue with it and demand they stop. Honestly a real proffesional would have told the school, flash is not needed and would only hinder the game. Fill flash is a non issue. Highlights and and shadows in faces is all taken care of in post processing not with fill flash during a game.
What you are saying is totally and completely ludicrous. You want me to believe that a real photographer is going to set up expensive strobes courtside on light stand where there is a risk of being hit by a player or ball? What about the safety of the players and spectators? What happens when a player chasing a ball out of bounds runs into it and takes a nasty fall? Or worse hits it and it falls on them? One of the first things refs do is check the court and surrounding area for anything that would interfere with play and create a safety hazard. I am not buying what you are saying. Now I don’t doubt that some kid who was shooting for their year book may have tried to shoot using a flash but not a professional. If you are hiring a proffesional that can’t get it done without using flash you need to hire a different professional. But now I have to ask are you a pro photographer speaking from experience? Not asking to devalue your opinion at all just want to know if you are speaking from first hand experience. I have shot college hockey in the Playland Ice Casino which I can promise you is darker than any gym. The lousy picture below I shot with a D7100 with an 85 mm 1.8 at 500 2.2 iso 3200 clearly not proffesional equipment As bad as it is, it was actually used in a publication. This is the original image just cropped and straightened and converted to jpg. It’s not exactly as it was published. No color corrections sharpening or adjustments have been applied to this version. It was shot through the filthiest dirty scuffed up glass that I have ever seen in a rink that place is pathetic. I was not hired to shoot this game I was just there as a spectator that is why I didn’t have my regular kit with me. My point is if a pro can’t get a better image than this in a gym with professional equipment without flash or strobes they have no business charging money.

Jaackil Loc: Massachusetts

You just contradicted your self and didn’t realize it. Lol. Believe me the players know every camera in the arena or gym. You said it yourself. This is especially true of younger players and highschool athletes. Maybe the youngest ones associate flash with having their pictures taken but not as they get older. If they see that camera up to your face they know.
Don’t be that guy who uses a flash.

ratjones

My comments are geared to a specific use - yearbook photography... We shoot with flash because that is what the company wants... And that is what school yearbook advisors expect and want... This is high volume photography where consistency is valued over artistic content or photographer expertise (although there is certainly room for that). Because the company cannot afford to pay a decent (to most experienced photographers) salary - the company gets newly minted photogs who need more guidance to produce consistent results... and the company photographer guidelines are expected to be followed to produce work that the yearbook advisor can actually use in the school publications. Most of the High Schools in the northeastern US (and the company in question does work in a good majority of them) are relics from the 1930s and 40s - with lighting that basically sucks for flashless photography.... hence the use of it. There are, of course, a number of newer schools with gyms that have updated lighting. One can, at times get away with flashless photography without the company registering displeasure. (And if officials or coaches object to flash usage on a case by case basis - the company will defer to their wishes - or risk losing the client's business) I enjoy shooting in these gyms because it allows me to concentrate more on getting more dramatic action shots without worrying about flash recycle issues and the like... I have, however, personally seen photographers use off court block lighting (an Alien Bee 1600 with a reflector - aimed at the white gym ceiling - or aimed toward the basket and downwards placed up high on light stands - is more than adequate for the job... They are placed in such a way as to make it almost impossible for stray balls or players flying out of bounds to hit them or be injured by one falling on them - an example would be to affix the stand after opening it and extending it to full height - onto the back edge of the bleachers in the corners of the court - no player or ball could ever hit that - and if a spectator sitting in the top row of the stands accidentally brushed against it - clamps and tape in strategic places would prevent the light from falling - and if it did - it would fall way to the side off court.... any electric cords (if the light is being runn w/o battery power) are thoroughly taped to the floor as well... As for on camera flash units not being powerful enough to get decent images at far court... try using the Nikon SB910 or SB5000 (expensive but fully capable of nailing a far court shot from the other end of the court)... I use the first flash on a Nikon Z6 mirrorless camera and set to a fairly high ISO while using 1/200th sec (camera's native flash sync) and around f/5.6 to f/7.3 (my 28-300 mm F/3.5-5.6 beat up walk around lens' sweet spot for sharpness)... NEVER had a problem getting excellent shots near or far court with this configuration... And, of course, I always make sure that coaches/officials are okay with flash usage...if not (rare) I GLADLY defer to flashless image capture.

Jaackil Loc: Massachusetts

That is totally unbelievable and unproffesional. You mean to tell me that you are going to risk interfering in a highschool basketball game to get pictures for a year book? For a freakin yearbook?
I have no words for that. I have seen the crap some of these national companies produce for senior pictures that go in a yearbook and they all of a sudden are worried about the quality of shots at a basketball game? On top of that the print medium that they use dosent really matter it’s not a high gloss fashion magazine nor are they being blown up to 24x36 or larger SMH
Yeah those flashes are capable but you are going to distract someone with that much power. What about the poor kid who happens to be looking in the direction of the flash as it fires and sees spots and the ball is thrown to him and it goes off his face. That must be real cool. But it dosent matter, got to get those shots for the year book! You do realize that these kids take their game very seriously? Some might have aspirations to play in college and if not, it might be their last time playing the game at a competitive level. It’s ok to interfere with that for the year book? Ok so I can understand maybe the newbies who have no clue they do what they are told and shame on the company that hires people with no skill and unleashes them. But how do you justify it with your Z6 if you know what you are doing?
There is an ethical question here. This is not about artistic results or anything else. This is about the potential with every single shot to interfere in an athletic contest. All for the sake of getting the job done because that matters much more than the players on the court. The game is not about the players it’s played so the photographer can get pictures for the yearbook.
I am sorry, saying if a coach or ref has an issue you stop, dosent cut it. That’s like saying you always talk out loud in a movie unless someone asks you not to. Or you always smoke in restaurants unless someone asks you not to then you are happy to put it out. No one should have to ask, some things you should just know better.
(Please understand my tone here. I am not trying to attack you or arguing. Please accept it as discussion not a heated argument. Tone often gets lost in print).
But let’s get back to the OP’s point. He is not hired by a company, he is a guy like you and me, at our own kids game who is shooting his nephew in this case not for hire No one should be telling him it is ok to use flash.

TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC

I’m sure there are different rules depending on the sport, but in the high schools I shoot at here (and I do it regularly), flash is never used in the sports I shoot, and my shots are regularly printed in the school yearbook. I would add that modern HS yearbooks are very sophisticated, polished and of very high quality - better than my college yearbooks. HS gyms are notoriously dark at night, but if your camera can handle high ISOs (6400-12,800 are typical) and you use fast lenses (which also isolate the subject from the background) and fast AF, you can produce publication quality results. Indoor sports at the sub pro/collegiate level is a very demanding genre’ in terms of equipment requirements - it was my primary motivation to move to FF.

tomcat

Those are good suggestions. I shoot probably 4-5 basketball games a week for local high school. The hardest ages to shoot are the 4-6 year olds in recreational leagues because they bunch around the ball like a cat on a mouse. There is no separation amongst the players. In addition, the target square in the viewfinder is larger than the frontal area of the youths and even a mm shift with your target can make you lose focus. I notice it a lot with little kids. Nikon even devotes an entire paragraph in their owner's manual about making sure that the subject is larger than the target. I often have to get really close to the action to make the subjects fill the target AF point.

tomcat

Same here old buddy. I have not seen any yearbook photographers using flash during a basketball game. I shoot a couple of games each year with a well-known yearbook publisher and have become fast friends with them. They never use flash except at the Homecoming ceremony for the presentations. It is asinine and totally irresponsible to use a flash at any ball game. The best Nikon and Canon speed lights with a range of 50-ish feet can definitely light up the players but it is still not acceptable. I see parents in the stands use a either a cellphone flash or a built-in DSLR camera flash and I snicker because we both know that the range is limited to 10 ft or so.

So I tell any of the fellow UHH'rs to forget flash during a sporting event, please. I will ask you to stop if you come to one of my games.

tgreenhaw

Lots of interesting points in this discussion. I wanted to try out my RP at a high school basketball game earlier this year. I was more interested in experimenting with video, but here are some examples of what to expect from shots from the stands. I think with your f 2.8 lens you are better equipped for this than I am. I shot mostly at 200th of a second but in the future will go higher ISO and maybe 500th for stills.

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skornfeld

Here's some of what I got yesterday

tomcat

Your heart is in it. But you are in dire need of an f/1.8 or faster lens and a full frame camera. Shutter speed could be 1/1,000 to freeze the action. Any you need the faster lens for more light. These are a tad bit dim and off color. The color balance could be due to the halogen lighting and there's not much you can do about that.

skornfeld

Shot with a nikon 850 (full frame) and 70-200 2.8 but at 1/640 f4 and auto iso around 2000. Actually they look significantly better on computer scree. Should have loaded full size instead of small jpeg. This is now large as it won't allow actual size.