deleting photos in camera (Page 8): It started a long time ago. Back in the 90's when cards were in megabytes instead of gigabytes, they had certain redundancy repair. It might have...

JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA

Longshadow wrote:

Ditto, I used to program the test systems to test memory (and other ICs). That's why I'm asking about the "extra" memory that never USED to be in memory chips.

So, for instance, a 32Gb memory is really larger than 32Gb, with extra space for bad cells?
When did this start?

It started a long time ago. Back in the 90's when cards were in megabytes instead of gigabytes, they had certain redundancy repair. It might have been spare blocks or spare columns, but it was there. They had to in order keep yields high. It is up to each manufacturer to implement their own method. The end user is unaware of what it is.

ECC repair is more recent. But even this has been around for 10 or 15 years. I remember devices with a page size of 512 bytes implementing ECC.

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

JimH123 wrote:

It started a long time ago. Back in the 90's when cards were in megabytes instead of gigabytes, they had certain redundancy repair. It might have been spare blocks or spare columns, but it was there. They had to in order keep yields high. It is up to each manufacturer to implement their own method. The end user is unaware of what it is.

ECC repair is more recent. But even this has been around for 10 or 15 years. I remember devices with a page size of 512 bytes implementing ECC.

Cool. Thanks for the info.
That all started with "cards", I tested the ICs when they were still in DIPs.
Test responsibility ended for me around 2000. The company I worked for only used DIPs or SO packages.

JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA

jtwind wrote:

I was told about this once, it's not a hole, it does fragment the memory. Meaning it leaves a space the size of the image you deleted and it may not get filled by another photo not that size. Just means your card has slightly less capacity for that shoot. It all goes back to normal when you format the card. Just not a big deal unless for some reason you have to fill every bit of space on a card.

The camera can reuse that hole. Images are stored into a cluster. It is likely that one image will need muliple clusters. If an image has been deleted, the clusters that it used a fair game for the taking.

This is why if you delete a file that you didn't want to delete, you are advised to stop using the card until the file has been recovered.

DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA

JimH123 wrote:

Doesn't delete the FAT table. It resets the FAT table so that it is clear.

A regular format doesn't reset the FAT table. It marks all the sectors as being available for writing. The old data are still in there, slightly modified. That's why it is possible to recover files from a regularly formatted disk/card.

A deep format will clear the FAT table so that recovery is not possible.

JimH123 Loc: Morgan Hill, CA

Longshadow wrote:

Cool.
That all started with "cards", I tested the ICs when they were still in DIPs.
Test responsibility ended for me around 2000. The company I worked for only used DIPs or SO packages.

I did all that too. Back in the 70's doing tests for various 74LSxxx parts.

First memory devices were a 16K x 1 DRAM chip and 2K x 8 EPROM. Memory has come a long, long way!

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

DirtFarmer-

A regular format doesn't reset the FAT table. It marks all the sectors as being available for writing. The old data are still in there, slightly modified. That's why it is possible to recover files from a regularly formatted disk/card.
Marking of the space being available is done by clearing the FAT table, indicating that the space is available.
Correct, the file data itself still lives where it was located, but it is unmodified. That's why it can be recovered.

A deep format will clear the FAT table so that recovery is not possible.
Deep (low level) formatting erases the file data AND clears the FAT table.

brooklyn-camera I Loc: Brooklyn, NY

I have been deleting my card for years in my cameras with no bad results whatsoever. So I guess it's up to the individual if he/she wishes to delete on your card or not? To delete or not to delete, that is the question?

Buzzardluck Loc: Tempe, AZ

foggypreacher wrote:

I have a photography friend who was told not to delete files in camera because it causes a hole in the memory card. I delete in camera when I look at a shot and realize I want nothing to do with it, so I delete it then. Once I have filled the card with files, have them all appropriately backed up, I will format the card in camera.

Has anyone heard about making a hole in the memory card due to deleting files in camera? Thank you in advance for your help.

That's the funniest thing I've read this week.

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

JimH123 wrote:

I did all that too. Back in the 70's doing tests for various 74LSxxx parts.

First memory devices were a 16K x 1 DRAM chip and 2K x 8 EPROM. Memory has come a long, long way!

BOY HOWDY has it!
I did all LS/ALS/HC, proms, eproms, memory, micro-controllers, processors, you name it, plus discretes on another test system.

Ah, those were the days......

47greyfox Loc: on the edge of the Colorado front range

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burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC

foggypreacher wrote:

I have a photography friend who was told not to delete files in camera because it causes a hole in the memory card. I delete in camera when I look at a shot and realize I want nothing to do with it, so I delete it then. Once I have filled the card with files, have them all appropriately backed up, I will format the card in camera.

Has anyone heard about making a hole in the memory card due to deleting files in camera? Thank you in advance for your help.

MYTH. It won't harm a memory card. Modern flash memory devices can be used for hundreds, if not thousands, of cycles.

WORKFLOW may require not deleting in camera, however. If you are using professional image management tools to synchronize images from MULTIPLE CAMERAS into a timeline, deleting a file can throw off the synchronization, which relies on reading date and time stamps embedded in the files.

dfrost01 Loc: Princeton, NJ

I don't know anything about holes, but I was told by a ScanDisk rep that the #1 reason for corrupted cards is deleting photos in camera. So, playing safe, I've never done it since.

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

dfrost01 wrote:

I don't know anything about holes, but I was told by a ScanDisk rep that the #1 reason for corrupted cards is deleting photos in camera. So, playing safe, I've never done it since.

I delete in two cameras and haven't had a problem in ten years.
Do what you feel comfortable with doing.

JD750 Loc: SoCal

foggypreacher wrote:

I have a photography friend who was told not to delete files in camera because it causes a hole in the memory card. I delete in camera when I look at a shot and realize I want nothing to do with it, so I delete it then. Once I have filled the card with files, have them all appropriately backed up, I will format the card in camera.

Has anyone heard about making a hole in the memory card due to deleting files in camera? Thank you in advance for your help.

Ha ha I think you have to use a drill to make a hole!!!

With all the pages of replies I hope someone told you don’t worry about it. Your process is fine.

JD750 Loc: SoCal

burkphoto wrote:

MYTH. It won't harm a memory card. Modern flash memory devices can be used for hundreds, if not thousands, of cycles.

WORKFLOW may require not deleting in camera, however. If you are using professional image management tools to synchronize images from MULTIPLE CAMERAS into a timeline, deleting a file can throw off the synchronization, which relies on reading date and time stamps embedded in the files.

10s of thousands to 100s of thousands of write cycles.