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Dec 29, 2019 15:48:32   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Dannj wrote:
The only issue I have with the 2nd Amendment is that it seems like the phrase “....a well regulated militia...” is ignored by many gun control opponents.

I choose not own guns and have nothing against responsible people who own guns.
I just don’t understand how this phrase appears to have no place in the discussion.


Because it does not fit their narrative.
Militia: A body of citizens ...

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Dec 29, 2019 17:13:47   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
Dannj wrote:
The only issue I have with the 2nd Amendment is that it seems like the phrase “....a well regulated militia...” is ignored by many gun control opponents.

I choose not own guns and have nothing against responsible people who own guns.
I just don’t understand how this phrase appears to have no place in the discussion.


1. in the late 18th century when written "well regulated" meant working well, in good working order, well equipped etc. Not controlled by regulations.
2. the Militia Act says all male (and some female) citizens or those who have declared to become citizens who are able bodied between the ages of 17 and 45 (older for some special categories) are members of the militia. There are provisions for some people to opt out. There are two types of militia in all states and territories and 3 types in some states and territories:
a. unorganized militia = everyone not a member of one of the other(two) types
b. the National Guard falls under "organized militia" with a few other groups - like some states have Naval Militia units.
c. State Guard or state organized militia groups - not all states and territories have these anymore. California is one state that does have this type. Formerly called the California State Military Reserve but now the California State Guard. Their purpose is to be ready to either assist the CA National Guard or take their place if the National Guard is called to active duty.

So those of us who own guns and are gun control opponents are automatically part of the militia. And if you are under 45 so are you and every other male citizen or person who has started the process to be naturalized, you just didn't know it. Females who join the National Guard or a State Guard are also members of the militia.
And in the old days if called up you either had to show up with your own weapons and gear or join an organized militia whose weapons and gear were provided by a local government or in some cases rich individuals.

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Dec 29, 2019 18:45:26   #
Dannj
 
robertjerl wrote:
1. in the late 18th century when written "well regulated" meant working well, in good working order, well equipped etc. Not controlled by regulations.
2. the Militia Act says all male (and some female) citizens or those who have declared to become citizens who are able bodied between the ages of 17 and 45 (older for some special categories) are members of the militia. There are provisions for some people to opt out. There are two types of militia in all states and territories and 3 types in some states and territories:
a. unorganized militia = everyone not a member of one of the other(two) types
b. the National Guard falls under "organized militia" with a few other groups - like some states have Naval Militia units.
c. State Guard or state organized militia groups - not all states and territories have these anymore. California is one state that does have this type. Formerly called the California State Military Reserve but now the California State Guard. Their purpose is to be ready to either assist the CA National Guard or take their place if the National Guard is called to active duty.

So those of us who own guns and are gun control opponents are automatically part of the militia. And if you are under 45 so are you and every other male citizen or person who has started the process to be naturalized, you just didn't know it. Females who join the National Guard or a State Guard are also members of the militia.
And in the old days if called up you either had to show up with your own weapons and gear or join an organized militia whose weapons and gear were provided by a local government or in some cases rich individuals.
1. in the late 18th century when written "wel... (show quote)


So, 250 + years later we’re still holding to the way things were in the “old days”?

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Dec 29, 2019 18:59:45   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Dannj wrote:
So, 250 + years later we’re still holding to the way things were in the “old days”?


Yup, if we don't, we won't be able to keep The Republic.
It will change......

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Dec 29, 2019 21:06:38   #
Dan Copeland Loc: Hamilton Ontario Canada
 
In Canada with gun control the murder rate in Toronto is as follows. But all the guns used in the murders in Toronto were most likely smuggled in from the USA. and mostly gang related.

Toronto's homicide in 2018 was a record high, at a rate of 3.11 per 100,000 people, higher than the 3.05 per 100,000 people for that of New York City. The number of homicides that year broke the homicide record that was set 27 years prior.

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Dec 29, 2019 21:11:13   #
FrumCA
 
gvarner wrote:
Typical narrow minded irrelevant reasoning.


What is irrelevant about the fact that these cities are governed by democrats??

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Dec 29, 2019 21:16:51   #
FrumCA
 
srron wrote:
Lets not forget another highly dangerous place to be is the womb

Or in some jurisdictions right after a birth.

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Dec 29, 2019 21:21:13   #
FrumCA
 
Burtzy wrote:
You are wearing blinders if you think there is NO WAR in this country. The left and the right are at war. The two side are at war to the point that there is serious talk in the political community about southern states again wanting to secede from the union. And in case you haven't noticed, it isn't the liberal left who are doing the shooting. It is the gun toting extreme right white nationalists who are taking the lives of those with whom they disagree. I am a gun owner but I recognize the need for controls on weapons of war. No one...and I repeat, NO ONE needs an automatic rifle or even a semi-automatic rifle to stalk and kill a deer. NO ONE needs a bump stock to take down a rabbit. NO ONE needs a high-capacity magazine to kill game. Those are designed for one use and one use only...to take lives in a war. They are being used in this country right now. And if you can't see that, then you are being blind to the obvious.
You are wearing blinders if you think there is NO ... (show quote)

The fact that most of the killings are blacks on blacks hardly supports your contention that it's extreme right white nationalists who are taking lives.

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Dec 30, 2019 00:23:19   #
robertjerl Loc: Corona, California
 
Dannj wrote:
So, 250 + years later we’re still holding to the way things were in the “old days”?


Militia units went active in 1812, the Mexican-American War, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War and many of the frontier wars between settlers and various Indian Tribes. Then many militia units folded into the National Guard when it was formed.
By law the President and Governors can call the militia to service and failure to report can be punished.

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Dec 30, 2019 01:52:59   #
Dossile
 
Burtzy wrote:
You are wearing blinders if you think there is NO WAR in this country. The left and the right are at war. The two side are at war to the point that there is serious talk in the political community about southern states again wanting to secede from the union. And in case you haven't noticed, it isn't the liberal left who are doing the shooting. It is the gun toting extreme right white nationalists who are taking the lives of those with whom they disagree. I am a gun owner but I recognize the need for controls on weapons of war. No one...and I repeat, NO ONE needs an automatic rifle or even a semi-automatic rifle to stalk and kill a deer. NO ONE needs a bump stock to take down a rabbit. NO ONE needs a high-capacity magazine to kill game. Those are designed for one use and one use only...to take lives in a war. They are being used in this country right now. And if you can't see that, then you are being blind to the obvious.
You are wearing blinders if you think there is NO ... (show quote)


The best example of “political warfare” that I am aware of was against a US House Member, a Republican, who was hit by gunfire from a truly crazed liberal while playing softball in a DC suburb. I believe two other Republican staffers died. There are several well documented violent events emanating from both right and left leaning protesters. No one with a radical agenda can really take the high ground, on either side.

As for the use of rifles for murder, you ought to look up the FBI statistics. Rifles, including AR15 semiautomatic assault style rifles, kill relatively few people. I agree that one is too many. They simply are a symbolic item to rail against. Pistols are the big killers, particularly semiautomatics. A Glock or Sig or MP is easy to hide, deadly at close quarters. A Glock at close quarters requires almost no skill to fire off deadly rounds.

If you want to effectively intervene, it unfortunately cannot be race or sex neutral. Black males as a percentage are up to 15 times more likely to kill and be killed depending on the region, although slightly more Hispanics and whites are murdered and murder every year in raw numbers across the country. White Supremacists certainly are disturbing and occasionally are violent, but the whites that are responsible for most of the violent deaths are those who use illegal drugs. Users tend to be suburban, middle and upper middle class with another concentration in poorer neighborhoods, particularly areas with high concentrations of blacks. Unfortunately, rural America is not left unscathed by drug addiction, particularly meth. Drug traffickers, and hence drug users, are also predominantly responsible for the huge numbers of murders in Mexico and Central and South America.

The social solutions to cure the desperation and violence in our inner cities have eluded our country, and other countries as well. Political corruption certainly plays a role. Having seen and experienced the problems of America’s inner cities up close and personal, I am quite certain that government is only modestly effective intervening and that nonprofit and religious organizations are needed. These require volunteers, people getting their hands dirty. It’s scary to get involved. But assuaging conscience by railing against the Right but behaving indifferently is far more destructive than any white supremacist IMHO. The irony of Donald Trump is that his tax cuts have raised revenues and may well have, along with removing regulations, been responsible for the lowest rate of Black unemployment in history. Getting a job is an essential for overcoming the problem of black inner city poverty. BTW Wall Street Journal has a great article on the problem of gun violence tomorrow.

Guns are used for more than hunting deer or self protection. They are a major source of recreation. I now live in the wide open west where guns are as much part of the culture as professional sports are on the coasts. Professional sports, however, don’t carry a constitutional protection. Whether shooting clays, killing paper targets on a range, long range shooting, SWAT style shooting ranges, cowboy style contests or actually hunting, guns can be a lot of fun.

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Dec 30, 2019 07:13:56   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Dossile wrote:

...
...


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Dec 30, 2019 18:41:56   #
SteveR Loc: Michigan
 
SalvageDiver wrote:
Ahhh, not so fast. As a percent of the population, the numbers paint a different picture.

Murders per 100,000 people:

Chicago: = 15.7 (424/2.7M)
Baltimore = 49 (300/609K)
Detroit = 6.1 (260/4.3M)
LA County = 5 (500/10.1M)
Afghanistan = 154 (20/13K)

Using your numbers, your risk of dying is Afghanistan is 30 times that of LA County. The next highest risk is Baltimore which is 10 times that of LA County. In this list, LA County is the safest and, amazingly, Detroit isn't much more dangerous than LA Country regarding murders (who would have guessed).

Just another perspective.
Ahhh, not so fast. As a percent of the population... (show quote)


Don't know where your stats are from. The population of Afghanistan is 35.5 million. Also don't know how you figure your percentages.

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Dec 31, 2019 00:10:56   #
SalvageDiver Loc: Huntington Beach CA
 
SteveR wrote:
Don't know where your stats are from. The population of Afghanistan is 35.5 million. Also don't know how you figure your percentages.


The OP referred only to US Soldiers not other groups, such as other coalition or Afghan deaths.

A = 20 US soldier deaths in 2019
B = 13,000 US soldiers in Afghanistan in 2019

A/B = 0.00154 US soldier deaths per soldier in Afghanistan.

Govt and FBI crime statistics are commonly provided as an attribute per 100,000 people, i.e. a standard population.

A/B * 100,000 (=154)

So, basically, if there were 100,000 US troops in Afghanistan instead of 13,000, there would have been 154 deaths instead of 20.

Minor update: According to iCasualties.org, there were actually 24 US troop casualties in 2019, not 20. According the the Military Times, there were 14,000 US troops in Afghanistan in 2019, not 13,000.

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Dec 31, 2019 01:58:12   #
Dossile
 
Maybe the statistics would be better tailored not to the entire population, but to the population in certain areas of a city. Most of Afghanistan is a war zone. In Baltimore, the War/riot zone is west Baltimore. In DC it used to be Anaconda, probably still is. Detroit, about everywhere city central. San Fran, a lot of places, including West Palo Alto now. East LA. Those areas are probably more similar to Afghanistan in regards to violence. Mix in the entire city though and I’ll take my luck in Washington DC over Afghanistan every time.

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Dec 31, 2019 01:58:13   #
Dossile
 
Maybe the statistics would be better tailored not to the entire population, but to the population in certain areas of a city. Most of Afghanistan is a war zone. In Baltimore, the War/riot zone is west Baltimore. In DC it used to be Anaconda, probably still is. Detroit, about everywhere city central. San Fran, a lot of places, including West Palo Alto now. East LA. Those areas are probably more similar to Afghanistan in regards to violence. Mix in the entire city though and I’ll take my luck in Washington DC over Afghanistan every time.

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