Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Cheap Speedlights
Page <prev 2 of 2
Dec 25, 2019 12:44:03   #
Kozan Loc: Trenton Tennessee
 
ggab wrote:
So the power of the speedlights is what is adjusted and not how the umbrella is configured?
I try to avoid YouTube when possible. A lot of it is garbage.


You can "kinda" configure the umbrella by moving the umbrella closer or farther away from the subject. Let's say your umbrella is at 8 feet away from subject and you want to increase the power by 1 f stop. You can simply move umbrella to 5.6 feet away and you have increased the exposure by one f stop. If you want to decrease the exposure on the subject by 1 f stop, move the umbrella to 11 feet away.

It all follows the INVERSE SQUARE LAW of light. If you notice each stop on a lens is 1.4 times the adjacent stop. 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22 are all a factor of 1.4. Actually, 1.414, but they are rounded off to 1.4.

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 12:51:50   #
wayne-03 Loc: Minnesota
 
Too much math.

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 13:11:47   #
BebuLamar
 
Kozan wrote:
You can "kinda" configure the umbrella by moving the umbrella closer or farther away from the subject. Let's say your umbrella is at 8 feet away from subject and you want to increase the power by 1 f stop. You can simply move umbrella to 5.6 feet away and you have increased the exposure by one f stop. If you want to decrease the exposure on the subject by 1 f stop, move the umbrella to 11 feet away.

It all follows the INVERSE SQUARE LAW of light. If you notice each stop on a lens is 1.4 times the adjacent stop. 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22 are all a factor of 1.4. Actually, 1.414, but they are rounded off to 1.4.
You can "kinda" configure the umbrella b... (show quote)

Test it out! It doesn’t work that way. When you use the umbrella the inverse square law doesn’t apply.

Reply
 
 
Dec 25, 2019 14:10:28   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
I can give. you the "inside dope" on speedlights- I mean really their INSIDES!

My full-time day job is in commercial photography but for 10 years I was involved in another business that had to do with electronic flash custom builds and installations, repairs, and modification of all manner o flash gear. For me, electronics have been a hobby for many years- however, my partners in that business were an electronic engineer and two trained technicians. My function in that enterprise was mainly lamp-head and reflector designs and consulting on studio lighting installation and aesthetics. So... all that hanging around with the technical guys- one learns a lot about what makes all this gear work and also not work!

So, here my take. Compared to some of the "old school" portable strobes, speedlights are "plastic toys", however, they are very ingenious plastic toys. Even is some of the more inexpensive units boast some decent technology as to their dedication to the cameras the are intended for. They can do some pretty complex exposure calculations for you, the can nicely combine flash and available light, trigger other off-camera units, and the makers are bringing out some new nifty features all the time. That's the good part.

Here's the bad part or no so bad part POWER: They are all that powerful- the average speedlight inputs about 80- watt.seconds to the flash tube whereas the kinda old-style units, still in production such as the Lumadyne (with a shoulder carried power supply) can deliver for 5o- tp 200 w.s. which is handy if you want to use indirect or modified light, have ample depth of field and use low ISO settings.

LIGHT QUALITY: Use without modification the size of the light source is small and concentrated- a small linear flash tube, in a small housing, backed up by a highly polished reflector and a kinda diffusion lens. That is how the comparatively low power is maximized to bring up the BCPS rating, so the light can be rather harsh. The older more tradition design incorporates a larger user-changeable flash tube
and an interchangeable 4" parabolic reflector that yields a softer and more "feather- able" light quality.

CONSTRUCTION: Well, you gets what you pays fer- KINDA! The high priced name camera brand units MAY be better-built than the lower-end offerings and some of the higher-end modes may deliver 2/3 an f/stop more but none of them are lifetime investments. That small linear flash tube is not very well ventilated and with rapid firing, extended flash durations (for high-speed synch) the tube's longevity can be significantly lessened due to premature carbonization and burn out. The bigger units have U-shaped and helical flash tubes that convict and disperse heat more efficiently. If that flash tube issue happens, the cost of repairs will probably exceed the value of some of the units, if, in fact, the can be repaired at all. Unfortunately, the same goes for some of the internal printed circuit boards and other parts. Some of the imported units can not be domestically serviced and there are not too many local repair shop that can handle electronic flash repairs. In many cases, even the authorized shops are merely part's changers- the won't or can't trace out, diagnose, and repair tiny printed circuits, ICs, and micro-circuits!

I don't want to say bad things about the Chinese - some of the units are decent enough and the price is right, however, I still find you can get a "lemon" in that there are sometimes lapses in quality control. Also, if you notice the engraving on the bodes of some of the name-brad speedlights, the too are outsourced to manufacturing facilities in China.

In the end, you will probably get some mileage out of your very low priced speedlights but I doubt if they would stand up in hard professional use for a very long time. At an average price of 50 bucks, I would consider them kinda disposable and cheaper that flashbulbs used to be.

Don't feel bad. A friend of mine, a photojournalist, just burned out 2 expensive Metz Speedlights shooting high- speed sports. His 30-year-old Mets 402s took a lickin' an are still tickin'!

If you are interested in portraiture, your money will be better spent on monolights with the advantage of modeling lamps and more power.

Oh, nice diagram! One issue- even if your fill light set at lower power, it is better to place it near or behind the camera and not at the same angle as the main light. You will get better unity of directional lighting, better modeling and by increasing and decreasing the fill light's power you can vary your lighting ratio more effectively.

Good luck, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year!

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 14:20:24   #
wayne-03 Loc: Minnesota
 
Thanks for your input.

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 15:40:23   #
Jules Karney Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
 
Thomas902 wrote:
Great series on off camera speedlights...
While I love my Nikon SB910's it is pricey so I have opted for the Shanny SN600sn for my location work...
The Shanny build quality is head and shoulders above the more cost effective Yongnuo #685.
But don't take my word on this... Here is a definitive comparison...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGwmXwAAcRU Albeit with a slightly different Yongnuo unit.

Below is a fashion editorial with 4 Shanny SN600sn through a 72" parabolic...
Phottix trigger/receiver for HHS at 1/2000
EZ to over power the sun with this rig at a faction of the price of other options...

"...I see in your diagram that your Brolley Umbrellas are tuned to different f/stops, how do you do that?"
ggab virtually all speedlight remote trigger/controllers allow separate power assignment...
On my Phottix transiter it is identical to Nikon's Creative Lighting System... 3 channels each allowing power of 1/128; 1/64; 1/32; 1/16; 1/8; 1/4; 1/2 and full...
However if you want the abuse you can hardwire each flash manually...
Here I'm certain an incident meter was used to balance the illumination scenarios...

Speedlights are likely far more important than the camera one uses for the ultimate results...
Yet sadly folks throw money at VR in hopes to having to avoid coming up the curve on speedlights...
As photographers we paint with light... learning how to master and control light is the gateway to the commercial side of the image equation... Word!

wayne-03 thank you so much for your illumination diagrams...
Rest assured they are greatly appreciated and cherished...
All the best on your journey...
Great series on off camera speedlights... br Whil... (show quote)

Beautiful work my friend.
Happy New Year.

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 15:41:18   #
Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV
 
I own a pair of Neweer 750's for Nikon cameras. They do everything the Nikons do for less than 1/4 of the cost. Well built, solid units. I've used them for two years with no problems. IMHO the Nikon speedlights are obscenely expensive.

Reply
 
 
Dec 25, 2019 15:45:52   #
Jules Karney Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I can give. you the "inside dope" on speedlights- I mean really their INSIDES!

My full-time day job is in commercial photography but for 10 years I was involved in another business that had to do with electronic flash custom builds and installations, repairs, and modification of all manner o flash gear. For me, electronics have been a hobby for many years- however, my partners in that business were an electronic engineer and two trained technicians. My function in that enterprise was mainly lamp-head and reflector designs and consulting on studio lighting installation and aesthetics. So... all that hanging around with the technical guys- one learns a lot about what makes all this gear work and also not work!

So, here my take. Compared to some of the "old school" portable strobes, speedlights are "plastic toys", however, they are very ingenious plastic toys. Even is some of the more inexpensive units boast some decent technology as to their dedication to the cameras the are intended for. They can do some pretty complex exposure calculations for you, the can nicely combine flash and available light, trigger other off-camera units, and the makers are bringing out some new nifty features all the time. That's the good part.

Here's the bad part or no so bad part POWER: They are all that powerful- the average speedlight inputs about 80- watt.seconds to the flash tube whereas the kinda old-style units, still in production such as the Lumadyne (with a shoulder carried power supply) can deliver for 5o- tp 200 w.s. which is handy if you want to use indirect or modified light, have ample depth of field and use low ISO settings.

LIGHT QUALITY: Use without modification the size of the light source is small and concentrated- a small linear flash tube, in a small housing, backed up by a highly polished reflector and a kinda diffusion lens. That is how the comparatively low power is maximized to bring up the BCPS rating, so the light can be rather harsh. The older more tradition design incorporates a larger user-changeable flash tube
and an interchangeable 4" parabolic reflector that yields a softer and more "feather- able" light quality.

CONSTRUCTION: Well, you gets what you pays fer- KINDA! The high priced name camera brand units MAY be better-built than the lower-end offerings and some of the higher-end modes may deliver 2/3 an f/stop more but none of them are lifetime investments. That small linear flash tube is not very well ventilated and with rapid firing, extended flash durations (for high-speed synch) the tube's longevity can be significantly lessened due to premature carbonization and burn out. The bigger units have U-shaped and helical flash tubes that convict and disperse heat more efficiently. If that flash tube issue happens, the cost of repairs will probably exceed the value of some of the units, if, in fact, the can be repaired at all. Unfortunately, the same goes for some of the internal printed circuit boards and other parts. Some of the imported units can not be domestically serviced and there are not too many local repair shop that can handle electronic flash repairs. In many cases, even the authorized shops are merely part's changers- the won't or can't trace out, diagnose, and repair tiny printed circuits, ICs, and micro-circuits!

I don't want to say bad things about the Chinese - some of the units are decent enough and the price is right, however, I still find you can get a "lemon" in that there are sometimes lapses in quality control. Also, if you notice the engraving on the bodes of some of the name-brad speedlights, the too are outsourced to manufacturing facilities in China.

In the end, you will probably get some mileage out of your very low priced speedlights but I doubt if they would stand up in hard professional use for a very long time. At an average price of 50 bucks, I would consider them kinda disposable and cheaper that flashbulbs used to be.

Don't feel bad. A friend of mine, a photojournalist, just burned out 2 expensive Metz Speedlights shooting high- speed sports. His 30-year-old Mets 402s took a lickin' an are still tickin'!

If you are interested in portraiture, your money will be better spent on monolights with the advantage of modeling lamps and more power.

Oh, nice diagram! One issue- even if your fill light set at lower power, it is better to place it near or behind the camera and not at the same angle as the main light. You will get better unity of directional lighting, better modeling and by increasing and decreasing the fill light's power you can vary your lighting ratio more effectively.

Good luck, Merry Christmas, and Happy New Year!
I can give. you the "inside dope" on spe... (show quote)


Good information as usual Mr. Shapriro. I miss the GE #5 bulbs. Happy New Year.

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 17:05:38   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
mas24 wrote:
Yes, it seems to be working just fine. The photos look very good. I have a Yongnuo #685 (a Nikon SB-910 clone) for a Nikon DSLR. I paid about the same as you did for your Godox, $110. A TT685N Godox is for Nikon. Godox has overtaken Yongnuo in sales. I don't use an on camera Flash that much. Which is why I didn't spend a lot of money on a Nikon Flash. The Nikon SB-910 is discontinued now. But, you can still buy it used or refurbished. Just this month, I have observed video and written reviews on both Yongnuo and Godox, and there are complaints on both of them. Failures when you least expect them to fail. One pro photographer bought 4 each Yongnuo Flash units, and 3 out of 4 failed on him. He replaced the failed ones. Believe or not with Yongnuo's. Maybe he felt those 3 were lemons? Godox has complaints about service support. During and after warranty. If, you are in need of repair. Good luck. If my Yongnuo fails on me, I most likely will trash it, and who knows, buy a Godox. Adorama Photo Shop has Godox under their name as Flashpoint. And, I understand they give better service support than if you were to purchase a Godox Flash elsewhere. Godox's V1 flashes are highly recommended. But, they cost about $260. Perhaps, they give you better service support on those, than the less expensive ones. I don't know? Good luck with your new Godox Flash. I hope you get many years of service out of it. As, I hope for my Yongnuo Flash. You never know?
Yes, it seems to be working just fine. The photos ... (show quote)


These brands all work pretty well when new. Unfortunately, as you state, they are prone to failure.

Pros who do "graduation handshake" portraits every four seconds for several hundred or a few thousand exposures need flash units that can work for hours, at quarter-power manual setting, without overheating. Most top-end flashes sold by the name brands can do it, but the second tier can't.

If you're a weekend warrior who just needs an occasional flash here and there, these units are probably fine.

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 17:13:05   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
ggab wrote:
So the power of the speedlights is what is adjusted and not how the umbrella is configured?
I try to avoid YouTube when possible. A lot of it is garbage.


Better speed lights have variable power output. Studio strobes do, too.

Of course, in the studio, we might choose umbrellas, soft boxes, beauty dishes, "Brolly" boxes or "Halos", reflectors, scrims, gobos, and other light modifiers, all of which come in different sizes, with different types of diffusers or reflector surfaces. A hand-held flash meter is most helpful for setting ratios, although you can do it with a set of gray cards and some knowledge and experimentation.

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 17:31:07   #
ballsafire Loc: Lafayette, Louisiana
 
I like camera portable flashes that fits on the camera's hot shoe. I shop around for inexpensive or used flashes because the ones traditionally made for a specific camera can be very expensive (Canon, Nikons, Sony, etc.).

Figuring out how to use these flashes can be "dumbfounding" but after studying how the flash works it is very simple. There are two modes I like -(1)-I or E-TTL and (2)-Manual; I like E-TTL or just plane TTL which is an AUTOMATIC mode--once your camera is set to use the flash. If your result(s) are not quite right use flash exposure compensation (FEC) to darken or lighten the photo as the automatic method isn't always right. Others like to use Manual mode where you guess or experiment with the amount of light the picture will need to make a decent photo--this is done by choosing from 8 different powers of light then fine tuning with FEC. As far as the other modes, they are not commonly used, for example, high speed sync (Hss) and back curtain mode, etc. Just play around with your flash off camera to practice which button(s) to press especially with different brands. So, don't get trigger-happy and shoot the crap out of your speed lights and they should last a very long time! As "they" say --HAPPY SHOOTING!

Reply
 
 
Dec 25, 2019 19:06:13   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
I hate to sound lie a reactionary guy- pining for the past but back in the day electronic flash units came wit specification- NUMBERS so folks could make more informed decisions about purchasing and using this equipment. Nowadays they just advertise or publish all the automatic features and oftentimes debatable guide numbers, which don't mean much unless you know how to use those.

WATT.SECONDS- this is mostly an electrical value based on voltage and capacitance but photographers in the know would get some idea of the practical power and usage based on their experience. Portable strobes used by press and wedding shooters ranged for 50 to 200 watt.seconds.

ECPS (Effective Candle Power Seconds) and BCPS (Beam Candle Power Seconds) are indications of actual light output based on the watt.seconds. input, lamp head/reflector efficiency. These ratings were usually accompanied by an angle of coverage. A typical portable averaged about 2300 BCPS at around 60 degrees so the cod cover the angle of view of a normal to moderate wide-angle lens. If you knew the BCPS you could find the GUIDE NUMBER by this formula:
BCPS x .063 x ISO and then fine the square root on the resulting total.
Of course, once you change the reflector, modify the lighting, use bare-bulb- all bets are off but the established guide number is a good basis to start from.
DUTY CYCLE: As Bill alluded to, for hard and heavy rapid-fire use this number is vital. It has to do wit running times and rest periods to avoid overheating. Back in the old days, some of the Photogenic units, popular among school photographers could run day and night without issue. Photogenic and Ascor were the only maker that published long duty cycles.

Point is- if we all knew the stats on many of the current speedlights we might be disappointed, the would fall short of some of the requirements for heavy usage. Just think- years ago a few hundred shots of a wedding were about average but nowadays it goes into the thousands.

For general use, however, most of the popular speedlights will certainly suffice- great little gadgets they are!

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 22:33:14   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I hate to sound lie a reactionary guy- pining for the past but back in the day electronic flash units came wit specification- NUMBERS so folks could make more informed decisions about purchasing and using this equipment. Nowadays they just advertise or publish all the automatic features and oftentimes debatable guide numbers, which don't mean much unless you know how to use those.

WATT.SECONDS- this is mostly an electrical value based on voltage and capacitance but photographers in the know would get some idea of the practical power and usage based on their experience. Portable strobes used by press and wedding shooters ranged for 50 to 200 watt.seconds.

ECPS (Effective Candle Power Seconds) and BCPS (Beam Candle Power Seconds) are indications of actual light output based on the watt.seconds. input, lamp head/reflector efficiency. These ratings were usually accompanied by an angle of coverage. A typical portable averaged about 2300 BCPS at around 60 degrees so the cod cover the angle of view of a normal to moderate wide-angle lens. If you knew the BCPS you could find the GUIDE NUMBER by this formula:
BCPS x .063 x ISO and then fine the square root on the resulting total.
Of course, once you change the reflector, modify the lighting, use bare-bulb- all bets are off but the established guide number is a good basis to start from.
DUTY CYCLE: As Bill alluded to, for hard and heavy rapid-fire use this number is vital. It has to do wit running times and rest periods to avoid overheating. Back in the old days, some of the Photogenic units, popular among school photographers could run day and night without issue. Photogenic and Ascor were the only maker that published long duty cycles.

Point is- if we all knew the stats on many of the current speedlights we might be disappointed, the would fall short of some of the requirements for heavy usage. Just think- years ago a few hundred shots of a wedding were about average but nowadays it goes into the thousands.

For general use, however, most of the popular speedlights will certainly suffice- great little gadgets they are!
I hate to sound lie a reactionary guy- pining for ... (show quote)


Photogenic, Norman, Dynalite, and Paul Buff, Inc. all make popular units used for school portrait work. I’ve used them all. They’re all very different.

Quantum Instruments makes a great portable, the Q-Flash. It’s made for heavy duty use.

Norman makes some 200 and 400 Watt/second manual portables. They are heavy, expensive, and if they still use NiCd batteries, they don’t last long.

Reply
Dec 25, 2019 23:27:10   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
burkphoto wrote:
Photogenic, Norman, Dynalite, and Paul Buff, Inc. all make popular units used for school portrait work. I’ve used them all. They’re all very different.

Quantum Instruments makes a great portable, the Q-Flash. It’s made for heavy duty use.

Norman makes some 200 and 400 Watt/second manual portables. They are heavy, expensive, and if they still use NiCd batteries, they don’t last long.


I use Lumadyne portables. I converted the Nicad packs to
12 Volt 7.5 ampere hour gel cells. Very long duty cycles, fast recycling and around 300 full powe flashes per charge.

Reply
Dec 26, 2019 10:33:26   #
flashdaddy Loc: Berlin PA
 
You need to check out GoMoLight.com. Michael sells AND services the Godox line of flashes. He also offers a 2 year warranty. (all this depends on the model of flash you are purchasing) He also offers a line of softboxes, lightstands, etc.

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 2
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.