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Black dog in a snow bank
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Dec 3, 2019 19:47:33   #
raymondh Loc: Walker, MI
 
jamesl wrote:
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Take two shots, one adjusted for the dog the other adjusted for the snow and blend or mask the two together.


Thank you for the obvious solution but since I haven't got past DPP for photo processing, blending or masking is far beyond my capabilities.

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Dec 3, 2019 20:35:09   #
RGG
 
Seems like a job for an HDR series.

Some cameras (even phone cameras) have some on-board HDR processing if Post-Processing is not an option.

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Dec 3, 2019 21:52:26   #
Vlux
 
billnikon wrote:
I always metered my hand and stopped down one to two stops.
Now I use an incident light meter that measures the amount of light that reaches my meter instead of a reflected light reading of my camera.
You can also shoot in auto and use the exposure compensation. Start shooting and adjust and look at the results until you find the exposure you like.
You can also go manual and do the same thing, with digital you don't have to wait to see the result like with film, shoot in manual and keep shooting and chimping until you get the result you like.
I always metered my hand and stopped down one to t... (show quote)


An incident meter is indispensable. Just make sure that you keep the ball in the same light that is falling on your subject.
At one time, meters made by Minolta were considered the best in the business. Used Flash Meter IV's and V's are available for much less than the cost of a new meter. Just Google the name of the meter used and several will come up. Thsse meters are hardy. If cared for, one should have many more button clicks in it.

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Dec 3, 2019 22:00:50   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
raymondh wrote:
What's the better way to go: Plus EV to get the snow right & fix the dog in post or vice versa?


Occasionally in cases like this I will look for something in the scene that is close to neutral gray and would expose on that, then lock exposure, recompose and shoot. I always shoot RAW so the PP tweaking is not extreme and I have never had excessive noise but do get snow and dog detail.

I should add that the usual pix I take with this type of problem usually includes light blue sky, bright white clouds and snow on the grey, granite mountain peaks, light to dark yellow aspens on the right and black timber on the left, around a dark blue lake. My camera "shutters" at the thought of getting it right and is thankful I can adjust the pic in PP and not blame him--- but the corrections are pretty quick, simple and easy.

The other solutions being offered on this thread for your scenario and perfectly OK and do the job but this is just an alternative that has worked for me from time to time.

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Dec 4, 2019 07:12:34   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Very well said, Gene! I bet you teach photography

I particularly like your explanation that "correct" exposure is whatever gets you the result you desire. Have you found that this helps folks not obsess over specific numbers?


Thanks!

When working with newbies or students, yes, the notion of correctness is easy to impart. The old curmudgeons have a much harder time understanding the concept - particularly those that don't do any post processing. The problem is, post processing is the norm, and unprocessed images stick out like a sore thumb.

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Dec 4, 2019 07:20:14   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
selmslie wrote:
You are on the right track except for the use of the shadow and highlight sliders.

Without those sliders the contrast throughout the image is fairly even in the brightest and darkest parts of the image. The problem is that the DR of the scene might push the shadows into the black range.

What happens if you push a little bit too hard (expose beyond the right) and you have to recover some highlights? The highlight slider brings the brightness of the highlights from beyond the 255 JPEG limit down to 255. It also lowers the values that were already at 255 to a lower value. Everything has to get pushed down. But the effect on the mid-tones is much less and there is hardly any change to the shadows. The effect is disproportionate - the highlight contrast gets reduced.

If you want to hang onto the highlight contrast you are better off moving the Exposure slider to the left until the highlight warnings in your editor go away. Of course, this makes the shadows darker but then you can use the shadow slider to brighten them up.

The effect of the shadow slider looks different. The shadows that initially looked like a mass of black get pulled up to where we can see some tonality and color. Exposing to the right reduces the need to do a lot of shadow recovery.

So while we might think that exposing beyond the right (to the point that the JPEG highlights are blown out) is providing more dynamic range, it's not doing the highlights any good if our remedy is to maximize the highlight recovery with the highlight slider.

But the most important thing to keep in mind is that, if you want to use the camera's entire available dynamic range, you need to be exposing at the lowest practical ISO - base ISO if possible.
You are on the right track except for the use of t... (show quote)



That has not been my experience. The image I posted had both sliders maxed, and the exposure in Lr was as I took it. I did add a little white point compensation and black to enhance the contrast a bit. And I did hold back a little on the brightness of the eagle's head by doing a very light local adjustment in Lr, but what I described is a practical application. I am not against theory, but sometimes practicality trumps theory. Besides, different raw converters behave differently. In Capture One, the sliders are contained in a section called HDR, and expanding tonal range involves maxing out those sliders and adjusting the black and white point in the Levels view. Taken further, DXO has other fine tuning adjustments that can be used in conjunction with the shadow and highlight sliders - and all provide curves adjustment for even more fine tuning.

In any case, Scotty, I don't see a problem with either the highlights or the shadows in the image I posted, all theoretical considerations aside.

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Dec 4, 2019 09:35:49   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
That has not been my experience. ...
In any case, Scotty, I don't see a problem with either the highlights or the shadows in the image I posted, all theoretical considerations aside.

It depends on the subject matter. Here is a better example from my own experience.

This image was taken at Sunny 16 - ISO 400 1/800 @ f/11 = LV 14.67. RawDigger (first screen shot) shows that the raw highlights are not blown.

In the second screen shot the image on the left has no adjustment made to the exposure, highlights or anything else.

I don't have one taken with one step of additional exposure (LV 13.67) so for the image on the right I pushed the Exposure slider to the right to add one stop. Then I compensated for that by moving the Highlight slider to 68 to bring the feathers down to about the same value as the image on the left.

As you can see, the result is that the blue sky for the first image is at a luminosity close to middle gray (about 127) but much brighter in the second image (142). The net effect is that the contrast between the highlights and the mid-tones are reduced in the second image. The other consequence is that the shaded feathers under the bird are brighter in the second image.

The OP might be looking for contrast within the snow. Sunny 16 (LV 14.67) or LV 15 is likely to provide that with very little need for highlight recovery.


(Download)


(Download)

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Dec 4, 2019 15:44:21   #
Rayart
 
The old rule of thumb to keep slides from blowing out in the highlights was to read the snow and close down 2 stops for some detail in the snow or 1.5 stops for brighter snow. If you have ever shot slides you know that 1/2 stops make a difference. With negative film they do not make a lot of difference.

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Dec 4, 2019 19:23:15   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
selmslie wrote:
It depends on the subject matter. Here is a better example from my own experience.

This image was taken at Sunny 16 - ISO 400 1/800 @ f/11 = LV 14.67. RawDigger (first screen shot) shows that the raw highlights are not blown.

In the second screen shot the image on the left has no adjustment made to the exposure, highlights or anything else.

I don't have one taken with one step of additional exposure (LV 13.67) so for the image on the right I pushed the Exposure slider to the right to add one stop. Then I compensated for that by moving the Highlight slider to 68 to bring the feathers down to about the same value as the image on the left.

As you can see, the result is that the blue sky for the first image is at a luminosity close to middle gray (about 127) but much brighter in the second image (142). The net effect is that the contrast between the highlights and the mid-tones are reduced in the second image. The other consequence is that the shaded feathers under the bird are brighter in the second image.

The OP might be looking for contrast within the snow. Sunny 16 (LV 14.67) or LV 15 is likely to provide that with very little need for highlight recovery.
It depends on the subject matter. Here is a bette... (show quote)


Great shot!

I don't shoot color slides anymore.

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Dec 4, 2019 19:28:20   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Rayart wrote:
The old rule of thumb to keep slides from blowing out in the highlights was to read the snow and close down 2 stops for some detail in the snow or 1.5 stops for brighter snow. If you have ever shot slides you know that 1/2 stops make a difference. With negative film they do not make a lot of difference.


Actually that's backwards. Reading the snow will give you middle gray, diminishing exposure by two stops will make it pretty dark. You would read the snow with a spot meter, and add 1.5 to 2 stops (or more) to bring the middle gray value that the meter attaches to what it is reading to a brighter level. This is the fundamental concept behind the zone system.

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Dec 4, 2019 19:57:50   #
autofocus Loc: North Central Connecticut
 
Gene51 wrote:
Actually that's backwards. Reading the snow will give you middle gray, diminishing exposure by two stops will make it pretty dark. You would read the snow with a spot meter, and add 1.5 to 2 stops (or more) to bring the middle gray value that the meter attaches to what it is reading to a brighter level. This is the fundamental concept behind the zone system.



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Dec 4, 2019 20:29:55   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Gene51 wrote:
Great shot!

I don't shoot color slides anymore.

Thanks.

When you get to my age you appreciate the low hanging fruit. This was at the St. Augustine Alligator Farm a couple of years ago.

It was not a technical challenge, just a matter of picking a time when there were not a lot of kids running along the boardwalk.

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Dec 4, 2019 20:37:53   #
Notorious T.O.D. Loc: Harrisburg, North Carolina
 
Very Nice!!!

selmslie wrote:
It depends on the subject matter. Here is a better example from my own experience.

This image was taken at Sunny 16 - ISO 400 1/800 @ f/11 = LV 14.67. RawDigger (first screen shot) shows that the raw highlights are not blown.

In the second screen shot the image on the left has no adjustment made to the exposure, highlights or anything else.

I don't have one taken with one step of additional exposure (LV 13.67) so for the image on the right I pushed the Exposure slider to the right to add one stop. Then I compensated for that by moving the Highlight slider to 68 to bring the feathers down to about the same value as the image on the left.

As you can see, the result is that the blue sky for the first image is at a luminosity close to middle gray (about 127) but much brighter in the second image (142). The net effect is that the contrast between the highlights and the mid-tones are reduced in the second image. The other consequence is that the shaded feathers under the bird are brighter in the second image.

The OP might be looking for contrast within the snow. Sunny 16 (LV 14.67) or LV 15 is likely to provide that with very little need for highlight recovery.
It depends on the subject matter. Here is a bette... (show quote)

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Dec 4, 2019 20:43:22   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
Notorious T.O.D. wrote:
Very Nice!!!

Thank you.

It also made a decent B&W conversion. All I did was suppress the blue and cyan and boost the red and yellow in Capture One.


(Download)

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Dec 31, 2019 00:22:02   #
Thomas902 Loc: Washington DC
 
Way too funny... so many "great" ideas... albeit only one came close to an actual solution used by the lion's share of "commercial" shooters that I've had the privilege to work with...

Thank you jamesl; wdross and RGG... Albeit all of these gentleman still are a tad short of what actually works elegantly...

Ok, For the longest time I've assisted commercial architectural shooters...
Without exception all use HDR...
However with a rather sophisticated software application...
btw, I use this all the time... both for studio work and on location (many thanks to my mentors i.e. commercial architectural shooters)

Photomatix Pro... It allows one to achieve true (and stunning) HDR from a single RAW capture...
https://www.hdrsoft.com/

btw, it's not cheap software however the results are priceless...
disclaimer: I don't work for HDRsoft

This thread is a sterling example of Maslow's "law of the instrument" a.k.a. Hammer
There are indeed better tools available folks... trust me, k?

Below is an example of combining two separate renderings (in PS) of a single RAW file via HDRsoft... a.k.a. Photomatix Pro. The original capture far exceed the dynamic range of a Nikon D3... that is if one wanted to hold all the detail in the aquatic component AND actual skin tone luminosity...

Oh, sorry I don't shoot in the snow... way too cold... lol
Enough said: Have an awesome New Year!
.

HDR via Photomatix Pro
HDR via Photomatix Pro...
(Download)

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