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A hypothetical question about sensor size
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Oct 24, 2019 08:06:16   #
bleirer
 


So noise would be different, diffraction limits different, dof different, dynamic range different, but would noise and lens aberrations 'magnify' more in the smaller sensor, say in a 8x10 print, due to the Image having to be enlarged by a greater factor in the small sensor? This is the part that I don't get, if they both cover the same scene with the same number of pixels?

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Oct 24, 2019 08:20:43   #
bleirer
 


That article answers part of the question, but it is comparing two sensors of the same size with different size pixels, meaning a different megapixel count between them. My scenario would be similar in the sense of different pixel pitch, but have the same megapixel count due to the different size sensors. Is the sensor size by itself accountable for IQ differences?

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Oct 24, 2019 08:31:44   #
bleirer
 
kymarto wrote:
You are correct. It has nothing to do with "magnification" of smaller photosites. There are two major differences. The first is in noise. A smaller photosite captures less photons, so the signal has to be amplified more. Because signal to noise ratio is lower, it brings the noise floor up for the same amount of signal. This is most visible at higher ISOs. The second factor is a bit more esoteric, and it has to do with the physics of optics. To have the same angle of view projected onto a smaller sensor, you need a shorter focal length lens. A shorter FL lens has more depth of field than a longer FL lens. This means that at the same aperture, more will be in focus on the smaller sensor. This can be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on your preferences and needs. If you want a shallow depth of field in order to isolate a subject from the background, for instance, you are better off with a larger sensor. However if you want more in focus, then the shorter FL on the smaller sensor is preferable.

There is another point to consider about noise: A slower lens on a larger sensor will give you the same amount of noise in the final image as a faster lens on a smaller sensor, so having, say, an f1.2 lens on a MFT sensor might sound impressive, but the results (in terms of noise), are roughly equivalent to using a f2 lens on a FF sensor. That being said, it is clear that for equivalent performance (in terms of noise), you can have smaller lenses and a smaller body using a smaller sensor. The only real questions are about low light performance and depth of field. In terms of sharpness, pure and simple, it depends on lens design, but a well designed lens for MFT will resolve as much or nearly so as a well designed lens for FF of equivalent angle of view. Just look at the resolution of phone cameras with their tiny sensors, and you can see that "magnification" of pixels has nothing to do with anything.
You are correct. It has nothing to do with "m... (show quote)


So it sounds like you agree that the pixels in the raw file are unitless and dimensionless no matter what size photosite they started as, they are now just a number, or are sensor dimensions still stored in the raw and still part of demosaicing?

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Oct 24, 2019 08:39:24   #
bleirer
 
BebuLamar wrote:
Since you're talking about hypothetical so let make an example on hypothetical situation.

One camera with the sensor of 24x36mm using a 45mm lens set at f/8.
The other with the sensor of 16x24mm using 30mm lens set at f/8.
Both sensors have 24MP which is 4000x6000 pixels.
Both used to take the image of the same scene from the same location and the lighting doesn't change.

1. The image from the camera with the smaller sensor is likely to have more noise but that isn't a given because if it's better made it can have the same or even less noise.
2. The image from the smaller sensor has more depth of field.
Since you're talking about hypothetical so let mak... (show quote)


In your view would the initial noise increase in the smaller sensor be magnified more in printing a large print? Another way to ask that question would be if two shots hypothetically had the same initial noise would the smaller sensor be worse on magnification only due to the sensor size difference?

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Oct 24, 2019 08:44:30   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
bleirer wrote:
I ask this as a hypothetical because I don't want to get into debates about camera brands or models. Suppose I have two raw files, both 24 megapixels, both with the same subject filling the frame, both with "Normal" lenses, shot with identical exposure. All other conditions identical.

What differences in image quality would I expect between these two files based only on the difference in sensor size? What about enlargement, would there be differences in quality of an enlargement based only on the sensor size difference?

I've read that in enlargement the larger sensor would be better because it would not have to be enlarged as many times as the smaller sensor due to the larger original area, but this doesn't make sense to me if the smaller file has crammed in the same number of megapixels and the full image fills the frame and covers the subject with the same number of pixels. I thought pixels were dimensionless once they were in a raw file.
I ask this as a hypothetical because I don't want ... (show quote)


It would depend on the hypothetical differences contained within the sensor size.

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Oct 24, 2019 08:47:47   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
bleirer wrote:
So noise would be different, diffraction limits different, dof different, dynamic range different, but would noise and lens aberrations 'magnify' more in the smaller sensor, say in a 8x10 print, due to the Image having to be enlarged by a greater factor in the small sensor? This is the part that I don't get, if they both cover the same scene with the same number of pixels?


Even though the pixel count is the same between the two sensors, the smaller sensor is noisier because it collects less total light. Noise can be expressed as a ratio to total light collected.

So in your same picture scenario both images are taken from the same place = same perspective. Focal lengths vary to match field of view. And in order to make taking the two photos equivalent from the photographer's perspective they are taken at the same exposure = shutter speed and f/stop and so same ISO. Light falling on both sensors then will be the same per unit area (exposure) at the same f/stop, but the larger sensor will collect more light in total. Noise is a ratio over total light collected.

Don't think of it as same pixel count to same enlargement size. Think of it as total light to same enlargement size and the noisier smaller sensor makes sense. Less total light to the same enlargement size enlarges the noise more and it shows.

Hate to do the rain analogy but it works here: It's raining and you place two cookie sheet pans out in the rain. One pan is 8 x 10 and the second pan is 10 X 12. You expose the two pans to the same rain intensity for the same length of time (same exposure). As a result they both accumulate water of equal depth in each pan (f/2.8 is f/2.8 for all lenses and all formats). Now pour the water from both pans into two different containers. Did you accumulate the same total amount of water? The same noise level was present for both exposures but the proportion of noise versus total accumulation is different.

Joe

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Oct 24, 2019 08:49:44   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
bleirer wrote:
In your view would the initial noise increase in the smaller sensor be magnified more in printing a large print? Another way to ask that question would be if two shots hypothetically had the same initial noise would the smaller sensor be worse on magnification only due to the sensor size difference?


Yes. The larger sensor accumulates more total light. See me last post.

Joe

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Oct 24, 2019 08:54:31   #
rond-photography Loc: Connecticut
 
bleirer wrote:
I ask this as a hypothetical because I don't want to get into debates about camera brands or models. Suppose I have two raw files, both 24 megapixels, both with the same subject filling the frame, both with "Normal" lenses, shot with identical exposure. All other conditions identical.

What differences in image quality would I expect between these two files based only on the difference in sensor size? What about enlargement, would there be differences in quality of an enlargement based only on the sensor size difference?

I've read that in enlargement the larger sensor would be better because it would not have to be enlarged as many times as the smaller sensor due to the larger original area, but this doesn't make sense to me if the smaller file has crammed in the same number of megapixels and the full image fills the frame and covers the subject with the same number of pixels. I thought pixels were dimensionless once they were in a raw file.
I ask this as a hypothetical because I don't want ... (show quote)


As you say, it makes no sense to say the larger sensor will give a better enlargement - you are right! Pixels are pixels. A 24 MP phone camera can be enlarged the same as a 24 MP "full frame". The difference might be in noise, but only if you are shooting in poor light and with long exposures. Even then, modern cameras do much better than they did 10 years ago in the noise department.

I asked Scott Kelby that very question one time because I was trying to decide between a D700 and the (then) new EM1. It is not film - larger sensor does not mean less enlargement like it did in the film days.

The main difference would be in how steady the photo device was held, how carefully and accurately it was focused, how accurate the exposure was. At 24 MP you have a lot of leeway to enlarge. I have a 30 X 40 enlargement from my old Olympus E330 - 8MP - and there is no way anyone would guess it was not a higher res camera.

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Oct 24, 2019 09:40:36   #
gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast
 
Bigger sensors have bigger pixels and are better in low light. Other differences may be seen if you’re a pixel peeper. I’m not.

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Oct 24, 2019 10:32:00   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
That's the wrong word (normal) that just exasperates a general misunderstanding between 'equivalent field of view' with 'equivalent focal length'. The question / assumption is further exasperated by 1.5 vs 1.6 crop factors for different brands of cropped sensors. The prior linked example attempted to find two Nikon primes that come out to the same equivalent field of view while maintaining the same f/1.4 maximum aperture.

If we remove the 'how' / 'what lens' technical aspects of the question, the visual differences are in the out of focus areas, if any. One would expect some noise differences, more pronounce the higher you get away from base ISO for the two cameras.

When you consider the sizes of the sensors, this idea of magnification to get to the same print size should (could) magnify the noise in the image from the cropped-sensor by a larger factor to get to the same print-size. This issue is going to be more noticeable at higher ISO values, in theory, but this generalization would have to be demonstrated by specific / actual 2019 comparisons of equipment to confirm.

I prefer published examples rather than generalized expectations, such as this additional example of the same question: https://petapixel.com/2017/10/03/full-frame-vs-crop-sensor-shootout-can-tell-difference/
That's the wrong word (normal) that just exasperat... (show quote)


Wow, that was interesting though I did get all of them correct! I am surprised they look so similar and I don't own a FF digital camera only five APS-C cameras. But I have decades of experience with 35mm film cameras and apparently a good theoretical understanding of the issue at hand. To do the experiment myself approximately I would need a FF Pentax K-1 or K-1mkii (36MP) matched to my CF Pentax K-3 (24MP). I could actually try a couple different experiments as I have several similar 50mm lenses and well as 35mm lenses. But personally, if I could I would prefer a Full Frame over a Crop Factor.

A uncontrolled example I have there is my 24MP Pentax K-3 (1.54 Crop Factor) in low light produces a horrible image, and a friend's 24MP Nikon D-750 FX (Full Frame) produced nice images at the same indoor event. Though I probably should actually try a more controlled experiment comparing my K-3 (24MP) with my K-5 (16MP) that is said to be a low noise camera.

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Oct 24, 2019 10:34:54   #
gmsatty Loc: Chicago IL
 
What about this? The D850 has over 40 megapixels, but when shooting with the DX mode, I understand it has about the same no. of megapixels as my D 7200. So it seems evident that the size of the pixels on the D850 would be the same as on the D7200. Any comments on that?

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Oct 24, 2019 10:41:34   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
gmsatty wrote:
What about this? The D850 has over 40 megapixels, but when shooting with the DX mode, I understand it has about the same no. of megapixels as my D 7200. So it seems evident that the size of the pixels on the D850 would be the same as on the D7200. Any comments on that?


If serious, you don't understand the basics of the topic being discussed.

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Oct 24, 2019 10:46:22   #
lamiaceae Loc: San Luis Obispo County, CA
 
gmsatty wrote:
What about this? The D850 has over 40 megapixels, but when shooting with the DX mode, I understand it has about the same no. of megapixels as my D7200. So it seems evident that the size of the pixels on the D850 would be the same as on the D7200. Any comments on that?


Someone did ask about just that a few days to a week ago. Or was it the D850 vs the D500? Same issue though. FX in "DX" mode vs DX.

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Oct 24, 2019 10:50:19   #
donrosshill Loc: Delaware & Florida
 
I heard that there is a new pill for that called AI.
Don

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Oct 24, 2019 10:53:43   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
lamiaceae wrote:
Wow, that was interesting though I did get all of them correct! I am surprised they look so similar and I don't own a FF digital camera only five APS-C cameras. But I have decades of experience with 35mm film cameras and apparently a good theoretical understanding of the issue at hand. To do the experiment myself approximately I would need a FF Pentax K-1 or K-1mkii (36MP) matched to my CF Pentax K-3 (24MP). I could actually try a couple different experiments as I have several similar 50mm lenses and well as 35mm lenses. But personally, if I could I would prefer a Full Frame over a Crop Factor.

A uncontrolled example I have there is my 24MP Pentax K-3 (1.54 Crop Factor) in low light produces a horrible image, and a friend's 24MP Nikon D-750 FX (Full Frame) produced nice images at the same indoor event. Though I probably should actually try a more controlled experiment comparing my K-3 (24MP) with my K-5 (16MP) that is said to be a low noise camera.
Wow, that was interesting though I did get all of ... (show quote)


If you want the king of low light camera's consider a Nikon D3s

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