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Confused – aperture setting for landscape shots – f/11 or f/22 recommended?
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Sep 17, 2019 13:44:46   #
CaptainPhoto
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Rather than still more inconsistent feedback, why don't you take your intended lenses and cameras and take some tests for yourself? Find something you'd like to have a sharp and deep depth of field, side to side and front to back. These are test images to don't get hung-up on where / what to shoot. Set up your tripod, your camera and your exposure. Run your tests from f/8 through f/22. Go home and look at the images on your monitor at 100% zoom. With nothing changing other than the aperture, can you see an inflection point in the image sharpness? Are the details in the far distance consistent regardless of the aperture, or are some better than others? If you tested different lenses, is that inflection point at the same aperture value for both lenses?
Rather than still more inconsistent feedback, why ... (show quote)


Couldn't have said it better myself. Do your test of whatever lens you are going to use and find the sweet spot. Really don't think you will need to go to f22. Don't think you will like the results.

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Sep 17, 2019 14:48:42   #
photogeneralist Loc: Lopez Island Washington State
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Rather than still more inconsistent feedback, why don't you take your intended lenses and cameras and take some tests for yourself? Find something you'd like to have a sharp and deep depth of field, side to side and front to back. These are test images to don't get hung-up on where / what to shoot. Set up your tripod, your camera and your exposure. Run your tests from f/8 through f/22. Go home and look at the images on your monitor at 100% zoom. With nothing changing other than the aperture, can you see an inflection point in the image sharpness? Are the details in the far distance consistent regardless of the aperture, or are some better than others? If you tested different lenses, is that inflection point at the same aperture value for both lenses?
Rather than still more inconsistent feedback, why ... (show quote)



Yup! listen to DHG CANON. Diffraction is a thing that happens to light when it is forced to go through a small hole. The light rays that go near the edges of the hole are bent by the hole. This reduces the contrast and overall clarity of the image. The smaller the hole the more pronounced the effect becomes. The iris of your lens is just such a hole. A long lens has a much larger diameter hole at a given f/stop than does a WA. That's why a 4 x 5 or 8 x10 view camera with their longer lenses could use f/64 without too much diffraction whereas f/64's diffraction would overpower any designed in excellence of a normal lens on a 35 mm full frame camera with it's much smaller aperture hole.

Try this experiment. In a sheet of aluminum foil make a clean edged pin prick sized hole. In another, make a clean edged 5/16 (or so) inch hole. When you hold them up to the direct sunlight rays, which hole 's projected image has a cleaner, more sharply defined edge?

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Sep 17, 2019 14:59:31   #
silver Loc: Santa Monica Ca.
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Rather than still more inconsistent feedback, why don't you take your intended lenses and cameras and take some tests for yourself? Find something you'd like to have a sharp and deep depth of field, side to side and front to back. These are test images to don't get hung-up on where / what to shoot. Set up your tripod, your camera and your exposure. Run your tests from f/8 through f/22. Go home and look at the images on your monitor at 100% zoom. With nothing changing other than the aperture, can you see an inflection point in the image sharpness? Are the details in the far distance consistent regardless of the aperture, or are some better than others? If you tested different lenses, is that inflection point at the same aperture value for both lenses?
Rather than still more inconsistent feedback, why ... (show quote)


This is absolutely the best advice.

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Sep 17, 2019 15:11:16   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
camerapapi wrote:
I agree that you have to test your camera and the lenses you intend to use. Diffraction is a word that many photographers have been very concerned about it. Many professional photographers use f22 and they seem to be very satisfied with their results. With mirrorless cameras depth of field is not an issue and an aperture of f11 could easily be all you need.


Why would mirrorless camera’s have any different DOF from DSLRs or DOF not be an issue?

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Sep 17, 2019 15:13:42   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
Picture Taker wrote:
Only point I will make is. That the center of you f/ setting gives you the best of the quality of a lens. I would lean to 11f over the end of the lens scale.


Not really. Some lenses are sharpest wide open, some are sharper several stops down - depends on the lens.

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Sep 17, 2019 15:16:47   #
photogeneralist Loc: Lopez Island Washington State
 
Base_fiddle wrote:
Trix, thanks to you also for your follow up comment and for giving a two-thumbs up for Blierer's comments. I will download the application and give it a shot.

Let me ask a practical question, if you will. Let's say I'm standing on a ship and taking a picture of the glacier landscape. If I understand PhotoPills, I am supposed to focus on something say 10' away. If I'm on a ship balconey, there is nothing to focus on 10' away. In that event, what do you focus on?

Jose


If you are on a ship's balcony there is no problem with depth of field, there is no foreground in front of the glacier anyway. If you feel compelled to utilize hyperlocal distance focusing at 10 ft then just focus on a railing, door, scuff marks on the deck, anything that's about 10 ft away, then lock the focus and aim the camera at your subject, recompose and shoot. There is always something in your environment that's 10 ft away.

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Sep 17, 2019 15:24:33   #
bleirer
 
camerapapi wrote:
I agree that you have to test your camera and the lenses you intend to use. Diffraction is a word that many photographers have been very concerned about it. Many professional photographers use f22 and they seem to be very satisfied with their results. With mirrorless cameras depth of field is not an issue and an aperture of f11 could easily be all you need.


I have a mirrorless camera, and it has the same depth of field concerns as any other. In fact being full frame it has less dof at the same setting than a camera with a smaller sensor. Point n shoots and cell phones, now they get good depth of field.

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Sep 17, 2019 15:34:12   #
Bill P
 
TriX wrote:
It depends on the format, :


You've got it. Diffraction rears its ugly head at different places on different formats. On FF it can be around f11, but remember, that number is different for every lens. If you are using one number for all your lenses, you are wasting you time.

I recently read a test on a website, might have been lensrentals, that presented evidence that on m4/3 anything smaller that wide open produces diffraction. Imagine the poor guy shooting Nikon 1.

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Sep 17, 2019 16:30:11   #
photogeneralist Loc: Lopez Island Washington State
 
Base_fiddle wrote:
I am going to the Antarctic and plan to take a number of landscape shots. I’ve read Bryan Peterson’s "UNDERSTAINDING EXPOSURE" and saw that many of his landscape shots were taken with a f/22 aperture. I’ve also watched a number of YouTube videos in which professional photographers recommend using an aperture of no more than f/11 or f/13 because of diffraction. If I understood it correctly diffraction causes light to bounce around within the lens and creates a softer background than what it would have been using an aperture of f/11 or f13. I also searched past UHH posts for the last four year, but didn’t find anything on point. What say you? Thanks.
I am going to the Antarctic and plan to take a num... (show quote)


As others have noted, different lenses suffer diffraction noticeability threshold at different f/stops. Optical science says diffraction severity varies inversely with the diameter of the hole through which the light is directed. Diffraction happens equally in excellent lenses and cheap lenses if both have he same size hole through which he light passes. Diffraction is not visited only upon the background. Everything in the photo is equally effected although it MAY be more noticeable to the human perception if it's in the background.

I'm not familiar with holes in sensor pixels through which light might be diffracted but the smaller sensors typically use shorter focal length lenses which lenses have smaller diameter holes (apertures /iris) thus more diffraction than a larger sensor camera which uses a longer standard lens. Example: At equal f stops, a 160mm lens will have an aperture (iris) hole 10 times greater diameter than does a 16 mm lens.

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Sep 17, 2019 16:39:25   #
NCMtnMan Loc: N. Fork New River, Ashe Co., NC
 
I would recommend that you take some ND filters with you since you may not get to pick the lighting for many of your shots. Sunshine and snow/ice may be more than even your best settings can handle.

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Sep 17, 2019 16:45:35   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
TriX wrote:
Why would mirrorless camera’s have any different DOF from DSLRs or DOF not be an issue?


With the same size and megapixel-count sensor, the only difference is the lens flange-to-sensor distance. That has very negligible effects on diffraction, although may make lens design easier and optics sharper.

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Sep 17, 2019 17:29:18   #
Base_fiddle
 
amfoto1 wrote:
How much diffraction occurs in images IS related to the size of the aperture. Using "too small" an aperture can result in noticeable loss of fine detail in your images.

But, it's not really accurate to simply say that f/22 (for example) is "too small". It varies depending upon other factors, too. Peterson's "Understanding Exposure" is excellent (I often recommend it)... however it glosses over some things. Diffraction may be one of them. I know he makes no mention of using separate, hand held incident light meters, either. The entire book only deals with reflective meters built into cameras.
How much diffraction occurs in images IS related t... (show quote)


amphoto - excellent and educational post. I don't pretend to understand it all now, but will work on it. The more I read, the more of the technical stuff I uderstand...or at least realize I have to study more. Your point on Peterson's book are well made; I had not consider the possibility that some pics were taken with film. Thank very much for your comments and links.

Jose

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Sep 17, 2019 17:33:26   #
Base_fiddle
 
burkphoto wrote:
The amount of diffraction varies with the combination of sensor size and sensor density. Essentially, it is directly related to the size of the individual sensels on the sensor.

Whether you NOTICE diffraction also depends on print size (really, image magnification). In many cases, diffraction is measurable before it is objectionable.

As Paul points out, above, it is very important to TEST your equipment and then determine your comfort zone for relatively diffraction-free work.


Burkphoto - thanks for the input. You gave me a lot to think about. I started my testing today on one camera and can see a difference with various f stops. I need to refine my tests and try different things to obtain a level of confidence for shooting landscapes.

Thanks again for your input.

Jose

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Sep 17, 2019 17:37:16   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
CO wrote:
I did my own testing a few years ago and made a triptych in Photoshop so it would be easier to compare. I used a Nikon D90 with Nikon 16-85mm lens. I had the camera on a tripod and changed the aperture. The upper photo here was shot at f/11, the middle photo at f/29, and lower photo at f/36. The image quality is getting progressively worse.


Maybe you would have a different opinion with tests where the subject has substantial depth. That is what the higher fstops are for.

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Sep 17, 2019 17:43:22   #
IDguy Loc: Idaho
 
genocolo wrote:
I note that this article says:”Personally, I love f/16. (Though I’m speaking as a full-frame camera user; divide 16 by your crop factor to get the equivalent for your camera system.)”

Do all of you agree with this statement about converting for a crop sensor?


Can only answer for myself. Yes, I agree that is roughly correct.

You might want to consult the Northrups on this. They have a good youtube video on it.

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