Rongnongno Loc: FL

OOOOF!!! You made me check if this was moved to the attic!!!

I did not mean UHH but this 'main photographic section'.

As to the 'attic' there is one single issue... It generates more $$$ (advert) than anything else despite the low number of folks in there.

Rongnongno Loc: FL

*sigh* You are correct but venting from time to time is good.

TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC

Does the attic generate more ad revenue per post than the other section? (because it’s #4 on the largest number of posts):

Photos: 4,757,453
Main photography section: 2,230,922
General Chit Chat: 941,342
The attic: 880,619

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

Agreed!

I have no aversion to discussing gear and all the related hardware and software. My only "argument" is that many of the folks that are posing questions about problems, the issue with quality, perhaps dissatisfaction with the results in a specific image or in general, tend to feel that any shortcoming are all equipment related as opposed to technique and many of the answers support that notion.

Some folks are possibly more artistically or aesthetically inclined, others are more mechanically or theoretically driven, many just like to amass large inventories of gear and tinker with it. Perhaps some are hybrids of all of these types. It's all good as far as I am concerned and my philosophy in this matter is "whatever floats your boat and won't sink your bank account is alright with me"!

I manage/co-manage a few professionally-oriented (UHH) sections and contribute to the "Advice..." section. Ain't too much traffic there.

I don't expect "parliamentary procedure", the epitome of decorum or finite censorship on this or any online forum. Frankly, the constant eruption of rude, unkind and snide behavior just gives me a headache! It's discouraging and I am beginning to cut back my participation. All the rancor and vitriol just gets in the way of constructive and beneficial conversation and exchange of ideas and opinions. A number of very helpful and enthusiastic members have lately, unceremoniously left the form.

The Attic? Well- there are so many online sites, blogs, and groups for political and social rants, raves and heated discussions. Why not keep this site for PHOTOGRAPHY? Of course, our photography oftentimes confronts us with legal, political societal, philosophical and business issues and theses situations make for good logical discussions. Even in face to face discussions many off-topic and tangential subjects arise and that too is natural and friendly. I only object when things become chaotic and a perfectly fine thread crashes into a dumpster fire.

I can't understand why some folks can't simply pass over a thread that they find redundant, borng, "old hat", too rudimentary, or disinteresting, rather than chiming in with negativity, inciting nastiness and frightening off uninitiated new members. Then, of course, there are the folks who start a thread with negativity and insults that are bound to ignite an incendiary situation.

Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA

Hi Dodie,
The way I see it politics, arguments, etc. are going to pop up in the photography forum anyway, so there's only three ways to deal with them. The mods can delete the comments, ban the poster, or send the thread to the Attic, which I see as a sort of trash can. I think the Attic solution is the best. As far as threads that originate in the attic, I don't read them. But it is a form of entertainment for those who want to mix it up, and encourages those people who want to argue politics or anything else to post those comments there rather than in the photography sections.

Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA

I agree, civil discourse is much preferred, and I do believe most posters stick to it, at least unless they are attacked personally, in which case it turns into a donnybrook. At the risk of getting this thread thrown into the attic, I was in Catholic grammar school during the 1950's, and there was acceptable public speech, and private speech among your friends and enemies where nothing was taboo. I think that that acceptable public speech gets short shrift, possibly due to anonymity on the internet forums. But how can you expect anything better from ordinary people when our elected leaders revel in rudeness, ad hominem attacks, and lies?
But UHH has always reminded me of the sunken playground at the bottom of a hill where we boys ran wild during recess in Catholic school. Maybe that's why I'm fond of it. In all the years of fist fights, blood letting, group mayhem and just plain running wild, the nuns, watching over us from the higher ground above the playground, never interfered. Once we left the playground, worn out and subdued, it was back to school rules, silence, obedience, and fear of punishment. I sometimes wonder if the nuns got a real kick out of watching all the young gladiators run wild during recess.

Brokenland

Thats hard to say. Unless Art Wolfe or someone I personally know as a "pro" getting pro support from no names isn't really pro support. Hell my wife calls me a pro and I just think of myself as a guy with a camera.

So having a pro area as a main support for questions isn't ideal or any area which I wouldn't enter. Again many have said or asked "Why don't you take classes or courses" the way my wife sees it and so do I. if I take these courses, I'll lose what direction I'm heading because I would have taught be someone else who's direction is not the same as mine.

Getting back to the Oper.. I think it would be idea if there was a section devoted to tips or an online class of sort for those interested in learning about their cameras etc. I mean I've open the entire forum and seen a religious photography forum.. I suspect the best way to approach this would be to create an ongoing topic area where everyone can add their own insight to particular issues of devices.

srt101fan

I think your "no names" comment is unfair. A lot of talented, experienced people in that section of UHH:

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-510353-1.html

Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA

Well, advice either works for you or it doesn't. If it works it doesn't matter who gave it. If it doesn't work for you it doesn't matter who gave it. What people often don't realize is that understanding and doing are two different things. You can appreciate fine music, even understand how it is made, but it doesn't mean you can reproduce it yourself. Once you understand the basics of exposure and post processing, you are basically on your own. If you doubt that, go on flickr and find a couple of pics you greatly admire. Chances are the exif data will be there, telling you what camera, lens and settings were used. Then try to duplicate those shots on your own. You will find out how great the gulf is beween your ability and theirs.

larryepage Loc: North Texas area

I know several professional photographers. Some are completely self-taught. All are likely self-taught to some extent. There are several topics on which their counsel is in direct opposition to each other. There are other areas where their knowledge is just provably wrong. It's not a problem for them, because they have developed work processes that encompass and either compensate for or eliminate the errors. So I've learned that it is absolutely necessary to weigh carefully any suggestions that they make. Might be great, might be really haywire (for me and perhaps for others). So in my experience, there is not an absolute expectation of correctness of their response when I ask them a question.

luvmypets Loc: Born & raised Texan living in Fayetteville NC

Thank you for responding to my query with your point of view. I appreciate the opportunity to consider your thoughts but we will have to "agree to disagree" concerning the appropriateness of the Attic being a part of this forum since it is not photography related. Like you, I don't visit the Attic. This forum is for me a source of information and relaxation. I, personally, would like to see a stricter guideline that is upheld but UHH "is what it is" and I will continue to enjoy it and try to ignore what isn't enjoyable.

Thank you again for your reply.

Regards,
Dodie

Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.

I don’t frequent the ‘Attic’ either, but it serves a purpose, just as the toilet does, and that flushing sound can be satisfying.

E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada

QUOTES: "So having a pro area as the main support for questions isn't ideal or any area which I wouldn't enter. Again many have said or asked "Why don't you take classes or courses" the way my wife sees it and so do I. if I take these courses, I'll lose what direction I'm heading because I would have taught be someone else who's direction is not the same as mine".

"I know several professional photographers. Some are completely self-taught. All are likely self-taught to some extent. There are several topics on which their counsel is in direct opposition to each other. There are other areas where their knowledge is just provably wrong. It's not a problem for them, because they have developed work processes that encompass and either compensate for or eliminate the errors. So I've learned that it is absolutely necessary to weigh carefully any suggestions that they make. Might be great, might be really haywire (for me and perhaps for others). So in my experience, there is not an absolute expectation of correctness of their response when I ask them a question".
__________________________________________________________

Theses are excerpts for two of the posts in this thread. I did not use the "Quote Reply" notation because I am not wanting to enter into an argument with any of the members. Theses are good valid observations- well-meaning - but I hear theses sentiments very often and I think there are serious misconceptions about professionalism and teaching that runs through this and many other forums.

I have successfully taught, trained and mentored many photographers over a long stretch of time- I think if y'all will allow me to brag, that I am an effective teacher. And...there are a lot of guys and gals just like me and probably a heck of a lot better than I am at it. So here the philosophy that I share with many other professionals and teachers.

I can't TEACH talent, I can only help folks develop their own talents and inclinations, attributes and perhaps help them overcome a few of their self- perceived real or imagined shortcomings. I do not tell folks how to think, how they should express themselves, what "direction" the should take in their artistic pursuits not do I engage in any kinda brainwashing. I start off with a "nut and bolts" approach and firstly provide students with the "tools" they will require to actually perform their art, craft, trade or profession. Like a good "music teacher, I need to teach folks to master their instruments.

There are a lot of folks with all kinds of great ideas and creative talent but frankly, they don't know what are doing. They want to "write" visual poetry, aspire to produce great visual documentaries or capture nature's beauty with their cameras but they don't know how to "spell" yet!

There are also folks who are just too preoccupied with finite technicalities that they are not taking the time to "SEE", observe and make images. Again, I do not tell people how to "SEE" I show them how to observe, analyze, appreciate and apply their skills. I encourage folks to develop their own approaches and points of view. Many photographs are instant that there shod be no "rules" or procedures in the art, however, technical methodologies are a good foundation for creativity.

I don't insist that students "emulate" my style or approach or that of any other photographer. I encourage them to form their own styles and approaches while using their technical skills as they acquire them. Simply stated, if the don't have to worry about, fumble and struggle with their equipment and many of the basic skills become second nature, they have more time, room and opportunity for creativity. Some students become extremely talented, creative, unique and prolific photographers, others become "good mechanics".

Professional photography is like any other unlicensed or unregulated profession- you have the great, the good, the bad and the ugly! In my perception, I don't particularly agree with the dictionary definition of "professional", meaning you get paid or earn a living form your work. I feel true professionalism cenotes excellence, consistency, reliability, ethical performance, and good business management. It ain't a perfect world and there are the photographers in the industry work at man different levels of competence. There are certain professional cradentials, accolades, and accreditations but most of this is voluntary. There is however a natural order- the good folks usually rise to the top and enjoy a good reputation and longevity in their careers. The bad ones soon "fizzle out". It a highly competitive field, there are lots of do-it-yourselfers, even in the commercial fields and if you ain't really good and do outstanding work, you will not survive. Folks and even corporation will not pay hard-earned money for stuff they can do themselves or get someone's brother-in-law with a camera to knock off a few shots!

There are some great professionals out there that are LOUSY TEACHERS! They haven't the patience, they think the have "secrets" that they don't wanna share or they are only interest in endorsing gear! Some know what the are doing but the can not express themselves as instructors, teachers or mentors.

Believe me, there is a lot to learn from good pros- don't resent them, write them off cookie-cutters and pass up valuable resources. Classes, seminars, workshops that are given by accomplished pros are invaluable. Of course, there are some that will mislead you but I think that lots of the folks on this form are pretty savvy and will know when someone is being less than truthful, technically incorrect or steering them in the wrong direction.

Bill_de Loc: US

You can't really recenter an open forum. You can't even get people to make their posts in the proper sections. Most are probably by accident or ignorance, but we see some of the same people doing it over and over. I sent a PM to a member suggesting the section he should be posting in. The response was, "I'll post wherever I want and if admin doesn't like it he can move it".

When every post means $$$ for the admin, very little will ever be done to put controls in place. We chose to be here in spite of the shortcomings, so it can't be all bad.

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luvmypets Loc: Born & raised Texan living in Fayetteville NC

Very well said, Mr Shapiro!!! A wise person once told me to "learn everything you can about everything you can....you never know when you will need it". Something I have learned along the way is to look for those with experience. "Book learning" can be a wonderful thing but the knowledge a person gains throughout out his/her lifetime can be priceless.