jdkoerner Loc: New Yori

Based your assessment as well as the fact that I rarely use cloning and am moving toward PL it sounds like it's not worth the money. That's for the heads up.

jdkoerner Loc: New Yori

Under the topic of metadata, while i have not yet identified the original source of the issue of metadata having been changed, I have a new question about metadata, namely sidecars. In the Adobe Photolab forum I asked whether the .dop files were sidecars, and indeed they are, thus the PL losing the PL library database did not mean losing the file changes. However, both here in a question about exporting a subset of files, and in another answer on the PL site, I was cautioned that losing the LR catalog meant losing the changes made to a file, a major difference between LR and PL. However, now I've learned that sidecars can be appended to cr2 files processed in LR, one merely had to check that in the catalog settings metadata tab as a new default.

So I do that now. Now I have three versions of a single file worked on in both LR and PL: 0000.cr2, 0000.cr2.xmp and 0000.cr2.dop, and never the twain shall meet. Whichever program I use to open the file will choose the proper version. Right?

When there is a conflict in the metadata, which is 99% of the time, resolving the conflict in LR creates an xmp file. Is this a good thing to do, on at least those files I'm planning on working on? Do I really want to batch resolve 1000s of files so that they all have xmp sidecars, and if so, how does one batch resolve a conflict like this? Or make batch sidecars in LR?

Also, in the last month something very weird is showing up in the metadata: the creator and the copyright holder are listed as "Shaun Aguilar", to which I say, Whaaaaa? He's in the metadata preset under 'none". My friend would say virus. Any guesses? Any of you Shaun Aguilar?

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

XMP files in an LR environment is very 'belt & suspenders'. The edit data resides in the LRCAT file and in the XMP. Additional information like the collections are not written into the XMP files, so they're not a complete solution for losing the LRCAT (Lightroom catalog file).

If you could determine the source of the metadata issues, you'll likely discover the source of Shaun Aguilar. I asked earlier about changes to copyright. You said 'no', but Shaun is saying yes .... You might look into LR and / or PhotoLab for 'metadata presets' as it looks like you have something implemented in this area. Or, Shaun does.

Or maybe, you bought someone's use camera?

jdkoerner Loc: New Yori

Yeah that lightbulb went off and when I looked in the menus of my recently purchased lightly used 5D there he was.

jdkoerner Loc: New Yori

I checked. I have version 5.7.1. So we can check this off the list of suspects when it comes to the metadata question. --

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

Yep, your LR5 software is as up to date as it ever can be. The last time I remotely (and successfully) helped someone with unexpected metadata, we found the offending data was in a metadata present they were applying during the import process. Your issue doesn't sound the same as you seem to have something changing the metadata of the files outside of LR's control. post import. Previously, you indicated a plan re-execute of your workflow with a focus on every individual step and watching specifically for the issue to occur. Is that analysis still pending execution?

jdkoerner Loc: New Yori

It’s been executed at least using the following trials:

On imports from card and from disk. Each of these three trials were run under those conditions.

Straight import from both, no changes. Metadata reads up to date.

When importing under either condition, changing the file name, or adding keywords, or both results in “metadata has changed “

These were all copy because only copy brings up file name change.

6 trials two results. And I have NEVER seen the ! icon on any file, anywhere.

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

So, either the problem has gone away. Or, it doesn't occur when you first import the images from a card (see your original post). Possibly, it occurs when you edit these images outside LR using another tool that updates the metadata in the file, that LR detects as a file / metadata change, something to be tested next, based on your typical workflow.

jdkoerner Loc: New Yori

Perhaps I wasn't clear: none of the changes I made to the files were in any program but LR. The importing, the renaming of flies, the keywording, that all happened as the files were imported either directly from the memory card or the hard drive into LR. There we no non-LR changes. And no, they don't occur on first import from the card or the disc, but whether the metadata is up to date then because no changes have been made, eventually these files are going to be renamed and keyworded in LR, and the metadata has changed message will appear. Pressing the button to resolve the change has no visible effect. The history consistently reads first importation. I understood you to say that file renaming and keywording in LR does not result in that message. Is the simple answer here that the metadata has changed from what it was in the camera? Because I believe where is no change to exif, but I can look confirm that.

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

I can only guess, not being there nor being furnished with a video tape ....

The metadata conflict occurs when the image file has different values than as maintained within the LR catalog. I can show on my end that you can cause this issue by changing some of the file attributes (like the save date / shooting date / file size) or adding keywords or similar metadata into the file, any of these changes done external to LR.

I don't use XMP files, possibly there is a conflict there where the XMP file gets out of sync with the image and / or the LR catalog? If / when you encounter this situation, you should to the following:

1) Create a new 'temp' folder someplace on your computer, outside and unrelated to the folder of the image file and separate from the LRCAT file.
2) Copy the image file and XMP to this temp location.
3) Before attempting to resolve the metadata conflict, export a DNG of the problem image into the 'temp' folder.

If you import the setting from disk, see screen capture in page 1 of thread, are you saying this does not resolve the conflict icon? I'm not sure how to explain that situation as LR reads the attributes of the image (and XMP, if present) and replaces the existing data in the LR catalog. There can't be conflict afterwards.

jdkoerner Loc: New Yori

I am going to have to re-read this several times to carry out the experiment. I can tell you that I don't use XMP files, which were described to me as a belt and suspenders approach. Whether I ultimately agree with that or not, none of the trials or current catalog pictures have side cars.

When I ran these trials, I did so from a folder that I created on the desk top, nowhere near my pictures folder and subdirectories or the lrcat file.

I never use DNG files, because they are only slightly smaller than cr2 files and I'm not sure that in the 22nd century they are still going to be in use.

The only time I get a ! icon it indicates photo is missing. And it's a box that is blank but for the exclamation point: i've seen you post some with a pattern behind the exclamation point, and that has never appeared in my catalog.

When you say "import the setting from disk", are you saying I should create an xmp file and import that? Because I can't without processing the file in LR, so color me confused.

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

You again seem to be moving away again from where the discussion had been focused. Your first post indicated a metadata conflict. That is different from a missing file. Is your problem metadata conflict or missing file? This is relevant to nail-down as both situations have different causes and different solutions. You never succeeding in providing a screen print clearly demonstrating the issue / topic. You're latest update is a rather confusing addition to the discussion.

I'm concern you've taken a few ideas to understand your situation out of the context. Your initial post says you import directly from the card and later encounter metadata conflicts. You then clarified to say you use the "Copy" action for the LR Import. At the top of this page-2 of the thread, you introduced XMP files, see 0000.cr2.xmp. I didn't suggest using XMPs. I simply elaborated on what the XMP files represent given you stated you have these XMP files. The XMP file didn't seem to be unexpected to your situation.

Similarly, the DNG reference was a made as a method to export the LR catalog data for the image file as method to 'capture' the LR data when the next metadata conflict was detected as you have as-yet been unable to identify the source of the conflict. I did not intend this investigation step to be a change to your workflow.

Isn't it possible this XMP file was created external to LR, but LR recognizes the file and also determines this XMP data contradicts the LR catalog? Or, is it possible the XMP file was edited external to LR, again where LR detects and reports what has become an discrepancy vs the LRCAT? Or, could the XMP file be created when you asked LR to update the metadata in a RAW file where this can be done only by creating an XMP sidecar?

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

Maybe I have not been reading every entry closely enough. From the quoted post, two of the observed results seem to directly contradict each other:

(a) When importing under either condition, changing the file name, or adding keywords, or both results in "metadata has changed"

vs

(b) 6 trials two results. And I have NEVER seen the ! icon on any file, anywhere.

So, of these two (a) vs (b) comments, are you saying that you can cause the message "metadata has changed" by changing the filename or adding keywords during the import and having the files copies into the computer? But, when you then say you never see the icon, you've lost me again as the icon would appear along with the message. Where / when does the text of the message display? My LR6 software will copy RAW images from SD card, rename files, place into a folder, and add keywords, all without problems / icons related to metadata conflicts.

I'm not using XMP files. If I ask LR to update the metadata in the file, an XMP file is created as these are RAW files that LR cannot update directly. I have a basic RAW tool that allows me to rotate the image external to LR. But, if I rotate the image, LR doesn't report a problem. I deleted the XMP, again rotated the image external to LR so the XMP was recreated, still no issues in LR where the image is not displayed as rotated based on the XMP.

But, if I restart LR, I get a new icon and message for the rotated image: an up-arrow icon and a hover message = Metadata was changed externally.

So, with all this commentary and observation, there still remains the question of when, where and how does the message "metadata has changed" occur in your LR situation? Can you capture a screen print of the message?

jdkoerner Loc: New Yori

This, my brother photographer, has already been done, on July 2, in two message TO YOU: one, at 17:57, showing the interface without a conflict, and metatdata that is
up to date" and then at 20:48, the screenshot of LR with file names changed and "metadata has changed" message. I know the first time, prior to this, I didn't post the screenshot properly, but these two are downloadable, so you can see the before and after in all their glory.

Go take a look back at July 2; I'll wait. If they aren't there I'd be happy to repost them..

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

From your July 2 screen print, I finally found your reference to Metadata status, something completely different than everything I've been responding to. I did a quick query of my library and found I have the same message on images I've edited and have added keyword values into. Although this screen capture shows the TIF attributes, the CR2 next to it displays the same message when selected. Pushing that button to resolve the conflict does nothing more than push the keywords from LR into the TIF file or writes a new XMP file for RAW files.

This message in the metadata view is completely different than the screen capture I posted July 2 with the warning icon of a metadata conflict highlighted. In my LR workspace, I don't even display the metadata panel where I've adjusted my Loup view to display the image attributes that are my focus.

So, does the metadata status matter? In my workflow, I export images when working in tools external to LR. This export creates a new file with all the LR metadata written into the file that is passed to the external editor. I guess that if I was using another tool to access the image files directly (not via an LR export or external editor definition), those keywords / metadata updates like "owner" would be unknown to that external tool. If I created final image files from that external tool instead of LR, I guess that could be a problem. But, using a tool other than LR to create final image files would be the root-cause of this issue and well as the corrective action.

So, if the list of metadata attributes in the image file was (a, b, c) and the list inside LR was (a, b, c, d, e), the message highlighted below will occur. The conflict I read into your original post was something like the situation where the image file contains (a, b, c, x, y, z) where LR reads the image file and warns with an icon on the image of a conflict that LR not have these additional "x, y, z" values in the catalog that exist only in the image file.

(Download)