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Strange bokeh
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Jun 2, 2019 13:05:15   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
Timmers wrote:
What follows is why so many on the Hog Forum regard me as a jerk. It does not bother me one bit. When one is truly a master of your discipline then one learns to deal with the envious regards from the lesser practitioners in ones field.

The effect is generally in the realms of that category of what you are calling bokeh, but it is merely an effect and not the 'reason' for what you are seeing. There is nothing malfunctioning with your lens that this image is displaying.

Now the boring didactic part of this story/explanation. Everyone has heard of the golden means, also the Fibonacci principle. That Fibonacci principle is attributed to an Italian story about I guy who championed the principle of what is also referred to as the golden means. Essentially the golden means is a FOUNDATION of the active principle that governs the way our world works. The growth, the PATTERN of that growth in the natural world follows this interesting pattern. The way leaves grow on a stem and branch from weeds to giant elm trees, that pattern is followed. It is encoded in the life structure from a single leaf and the spiral of a snails shell. So there is an inherent pattern created by the plants leaves and the pattern you are seeing in this display, be it called bokeh or golden means it is the outcome of the inherent pattern that leaves exhibit as they break up the beams of light flowing through the tree's leaf pattern.

An additional didactic reference for this can be found by looking up a rather unique photographic lens made by Schneider called the Imagon. To achieve the 'soft focus' effects of the Imagon a device is installed in the front of the lens called an 'airy diffusion disk'. This is the part of the Imagon lens that creates effects like those you see in your image sun light through the tree's levees. In some images where a direct light source is shown in the photograph, the airy diffusion disk may show as a cluster of tiny points of light as seen as circles if the lens disk is dialed fully open or as partial crescents if closed down.

I found several images associated with the Imagon lens. The first shows the effect in the Christmas tree lights, especially to the right of the image. The second image shows the extreme effect most call bokeh and are the repeating pattern of diffraction with interference of light waves generated by the shaping pattern by a simple lens. The third images shows the Imagon airy diffusion disk and the light pattern it generates when in use. The last image is of an Imagon lens with it's airy diffusion discs.

To end this, the pattern you are seeing is the natural patterning of sunlight as it passes through leaves that interfere with that light and are creating a 'pattern' that is inherently made up of a pattern that you are seeing based on the golden means. Your natural and biological response to this pattern is built into the biological structure of your own body. Congratulation! You are a living being who for a moment has connected to the natural structure of the world in which you are part! I know, way to Pagan for the Hog! LOL!!!

All the images shown are from the internet, they are not my photographs.
What follows is why so many on the Hog Forum regar... (show quote)


I do not (thankfully) recall seeing you on here prior to this but I can understand why you believe you have a reputation here.
I find your rather pedantic explanation to be misleading. The cause of the distortion is obviously the result of transcendental forces tossing a metaphysical pebble into the pool of a failed reality.

Reply
Jun 2, 2019 13:11:47   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
Robg wrote:
There are multiple errors here that I cannot leave uncorrected.

There is no Fibonacci principle. There is the Fibonacci sequence (which is probably what is being referred to here) that generates the Fibonacci numbers.

There is no golden means. There is something called the golden mean. "Means" is analogous to method, as in "nefarious means were used." Mean when used with "golden" is a mathematical term.

Fibonacci did not discover or invent the golden mean. It dates back at least to Aristotle, more than a thousand years before Fibonacci.

There is an interesting connection between the Fibonacci numbers and the golden mean, which may have been what gave rise to the other misunderstandings: adjacent numbers in the Fibonacci sequence come close to being in the golden ratio although never exactly.
There are multiple errors here that I cannot leave... (show quote)



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Jun 2, 2019 13:12:34   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
R.G. wrote:
That's an interesting suggestion but I don't see how foreground stuff could produce the circle of ripples AND the outlying ripples as well. However, there are a couple of blurry, light, long curving lines in the bottom left corner (going left and up from the bottom of the guttering) which may have been produced by intervening cables or some such.


I am not basing my hypothesis on any technical theory that can only be determined in optical bench or laboratory methodologies and controlled environments. Whether it is a form of diffraction, a forced aberration caused by interference or other unknown effect caused by any number of optical phenomena or something unique to the environment in the OP particular shot, is anyone's guess or at least an educated guess.

In my own experience, however, I have seen this kind of effect and many others for which I have no theoretical explanation but nonetheless, are not distracting or detriment to any given image. Some are actually interesting, aesthetically pleasing and I have learned to call upon them and apply them as needed.

When bokeh or selective focus is discussed, oftentimes foreground elements are not part of the conversations nor are the effects or affectations of their presence in the scene.

The OPs question suggests to me that he finds some abnormality in the "bokeh". My question is what does "bokeh" supposed to look like- is there some preconceived idea of what shape or configuration all the out of focus elements are supposed to appear as. Perhaps this effect as shown is serendipitous to the scene, the lightning physical conditions of that scene at that moment and will never recur again. There may be some aspect of the lens design that brings this on under certain conditions.

I get the feeling that some photographers envision good "bokeh" as some kind of uniform special effect or repeatable look that can be added in during post-processing from a fixed app. It would be costly for the OP to send his equipment in for costly diagnosis and repair unless there is some recurring anomaly or some artifactual defect in the lens that is affecting all of his images. This could simply be a one-off occurrence.

My suggestion was simply to replicate the lighting, exposure and focus components and introduce some controlled interference and observe the results.

Reply
 
 
Jun 2, 2019 13:19:42   #
nadelewitz Loc: Ithaca NY
 
rook2c4 wrote:
You absolutely nailed it with your explanation.
To simplify the general concept - foreground bokeh pattern interacting with background bokeh pattern, creating a secondary pattern (in this case, the ripple effect).

Unfortunately, there are UHH members who will continue to insist the lens is defective and it needs to be replaced.


Difficult to conceive of a lens defect that would produce the aberration shown.

Reply
Jun 2, 2019 13:46:19   #
User ID
 
jerryc41 wrote:

Wow! I have the same lens, but I've never seen that.
............

I also use that lens. Never a similar effect.
You certainly seem to have an optical flaw.

I'm not among the "Bokeh Cult" ... I even
see it as quite ridiculous, but what you've
posted is not "lousy bokeh" but rather is
likely evidence of an actual problem.

If you can replicate the effect, especially
on a tripod and using Live View, then set
the camera to "shoot without lens", then
unlatch the lens lock and rotate the lens
in the mount to see if the effect rotates
across the view as you rotate the lens. If
so, you have confirmation.

OTOH, if the effect does NOT rotate with
the lens, you just happened to record a
very weird phenomenon ... which I very
much happen to doubt is the case :-(

--------------------------------------------

BTW, if you cannot operate the Live View
with the lens unlatched and rotated, you
could test by zooming. If the effect is in
the nature of the scene and thus not due
to optics, then zooming will only enlarge
or shrink the whole image but WILL NOT
move the effect relative to any objects in
the subject scene.

If it's an optical effect, it might grow or
shrink when zooming, but the center of
the effect should not relocate relative to
a fixed object in the scene.

Reply
Jun 2, 2019 14:04:34   #
User ID
 
fantom wrote:
..........
The cause of the distortion is obviously the
result of transcendental forces tossing a
metaphysical pebble into the pool of a failed
reality.


... like WORM HOLE ? Or a miniaure Star
Ship passing thru, and the exhaust from
its Warp Engines is distorting gravity and
space/time ? I thought Nikon's Advanced
Integrated Optical Lens Coatings protect
against that stuff .....

.

Reply
Jun 2, 2019 14:50:41   #
GregoryF Loc: Bella Vista, AR
 
fantom wrote:
I do not (thankfully) recall seeing you on here prior to this but I can understand why you believe you have a reputation here.
I find your rather pedantic explanation to be misleading. The cause of the distortion is obviously the result of transcendental forces tossing a metaphysical pebble into the pool of a failed reality.



Reply
 
 
Jun 2, 2019 15:05:37   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
R.G. wrote:
That's an interesting suggestion but I don't see how foreground stuff could produce the circle of ripples AND the outlying ripples as well. However, there are a couple of blurry, light, long curving lines in the bottom left corner (going left and up from the bottom of the guttering) which may have been produced by intervening cables or some such.


It is entirely possible for OOF foreground objects to create the kind of disturbance seen here. That is by far the most likely explanation, which is why I suggested shooting some other subjects. I find it highly unlikely than any lens fault could produce that ripple effect--it would certainly also affect the sharpness of the subject in that area if it were something with the lens. One possibility (though doubtful) is something inside the lens itself, but that would be clearly visible looking through the lens.

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Jun 2, 2019 15:06:31   #
Scruples Loc: Brooklyn, New York
 
I am puzzled by the two ripples too. There is one in front of the bird, clearly obvious. The second ripple in the upper left hand corner is not as obvious. It may be a one time variant that is unexplainable by any of us Hoggers. It could be a smudge of some sort on the lens either externally or heaven forbid internally. It could be a particle of some sort between the lens and the sensor. You may want to have it serviced or replaced. I'm familiar with the Fibonacci principle but this doesn't seem the cause. I could be wrong about this as I'm not an expert. As for any Hogger to criticize or insult another Hogger that is inappropriate. No one of us is better than another.
Since the lens is under warranty it is better to return this lens to the manufacturer with a copy of the photo

Reply
Jun 2, 2019 15:50:51   #
cambriaman Loc: Central CA Coast
 
I have that lens and have never gotten an image like your example. I would try several similar shots and several different shots and compare. If it's consistent, call Nikon. If it's a one of kind ignore it.

Reply
Jun 2, 2019 16:13:52   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I am not basing my hypothesis on any technical theory that can only be determined in optical bench or laboratory methodologies and controlled environments. Whether it is a form of diffraction, a forced aberration caused by interference or other unknown effect caused by any number of optical phenomena or something unique to the environment in the OP particular shot, is anyone's guess or at least an educated guess.

In my own experience, however, I have seen this kind of effect and many others for which I have no theoretical explanation but nonetheless, are not distracting or detriment to any given image. Some are actually interesting, aesthetically pleasing and I have learned to call upon them and apply them as needed.

When bokeh or selective focus is discussed, oftentimes foreground elements are not part of the conversations nor are the effects or affectations of their presence in the scene.

The OPs question suggests to me that he finds some abnormality in the "bokeh". My question is what does "bokeh" supposed to look like- is there some preconceived idea of what shape or configuration all the out of focus elements are supposed to appear as. Perhaps this effect as shown is serendipitous to the scene, the lightning physical conditions of that scene at that moment and will never recur again. There may be some aspect of the lens design that brings this on under certain conditions.

I get the feeling that some photographers envision good "bokeh" as some kind of uniform special effect or repeatable look that can be added in during post-processing from a fixed app. It would be costly for the OP to send his equipment in for costly diagnosis and repair unless there is some recurring anomaly or some artifactual defect in the lens that is affecting all of his images. This could simply be a one-off occurrence.

My suggestion was simply to replicate the lighting, exposure and focus components and introduce some controlled interference and observe the results.
I am not basing my hypothesis on any technical the... (show quote)


Your posts would not fly on a science forum. But, this is a photography forum and you speak a language I understand.

Thank You!

--

Reply
 
 
Jun 2, 2019 16:17:06   #
nlm Loc: Auburn, AL
 
Timmers wrote:
What follows is why so many on the Hog Forum regard me as a jerk. It does not bother me one bit. When one is truly a master of your discipline then one learns to deal with the envious regards from the lesser practitioners in ones field.

The effect is generally in the realms of that category of what you are calling bokeh, but it is merely an effect and not the 'reason' for what you are seeing. There is nothing malfunctioning with your lens that this image is displaying.

Now the boring didactic part of this story/explanation. Everyone has heard of the golden means, also the Fibonacci principle. That Fibonacci principle is attributed to an Italian story about I guy who championed the principle of what is also referred to as the golden means. Essentially the golden means is a FOUNDATION of the active principle that governs the way our world works. The growth, the PATTERN of that growth in the natural world follows this interesting pattern. The way leaves grow on a stem and branch from weeds to giant elm trees, that pattern is followed. It is encoded in the life structure from a single leaf and the spiral of a snails shell. So there is an inherent pattern created by the plants leaves and the pattern you are seeing in this display, be it called bokeh or golden means it is the outcome of the inherent pattern that leaves exhibit as they break up the beams of light flowing through the tree's leaf pattern.

An additional didactic reference for this can be found by looking up a rather unique photographic lens made by Schneider called the Imagon. To achieve the 'soft focus' effects of the Imagon a device is installed in the front of the lens called an 'airy diffusion disk'. This is the part of the Imagon lens that creates effects like those you see in your image sun light through the tree's levees. In some images where a direct light source is shown in the photograph, the airy diffusion disk may show as a cluster of tiny points of light as seen as circles if the lens disk is dialed fully open or as partial crescents if closed down.

I found several images associated with the Imagon lens. The first shows the effect in the Christmas tree lights, especially to the right of the image. The second image shows the extreme effect most call bokeh and are the repeating pattern of diffraction with interference of light waves generated by the shaping pattern by a simple lens. The third images shows the Imagon airy diffusion disk and the light pattern it generates when in use. The last image is of an Imagon lens with it's airy diffusion discs.

To end this, the pattern you are seeing is the natural patterning of sunlight as it passes through leaves that interfere with that light and are creating a 'pattern' that is inherently made up of a pattern that you are seeing based on the golden means. Your natural and biological response to this pattern is built into the biological structure of your own body. Congratulation! You are a living being who for a moment has connected to the natural structure of the world in which you are part! I know, way to Pagan for the Hog! LOL!!!

All the images shown are from the internet, they are not my photographs.
What follows is why so many on the Hog Forum regar... (show quote)


That was a fascinating explanation.

Reply
Jun 2, 2019 17:28:42   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
Could the problem be similar to the phenomena depicted in this picture? Notice three twigs that are in the foreground at two, five and nine o'clock that appear to be translucent. The wind wasn't blowing by any noticeable amount and the shutter speed was 1/250.

I've checked store original but "Download" does not appear so if it is not there when I send it I will resend. I was shooting RAW and jpg that day and this is the jpg straight out of the camera.

What caused the twigs to only partially obscure the focus points?



Reply
Jun 2, 2019 17:31:45   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
fantom wrote:
Could the problem be similar to the phenomena depicted in this picture? Notice three twigs that are in the foreground at two, five and nine o'clock that appear to be translucent. The wind wasn't blowing by any noticeable amount and the shutter speed was 1/250.

I've checked store original but "Download" does not appear so if it is not there when I send it I will resend. I was shooting RAW and jpg that day and this is the jpg straight out of the camera.

What caused the twigs to only partially obscure the focus points?
Could the problem be similar to the phenomena depi... (show quote)


Here's the pic with store original checked.


(Download)

Reply
Jun 2, 2019 18:28:37   #
Soul Dr. Loc: Beautiful Shenandoah Valley
 
My question to the OP is, where were you shooting from?
The bird is standing on the corner of a rain gutter. It looks like you were almost on the same level as the bird or a little below it.
Did you shoot this from an upper room thru glass?

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