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ISO is fake?
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Apr 27, 2019 14:57:09   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
nadelewitz wrote:
Who/Where is this Tony guy whose opinions started this thread? I'd like to see what he (and his wife) are all about.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDkJEEIifDzR_2K2p9tnwYQ

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Apr 27, 2019 14:58:53   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
larryepage wrote:
It is a fact that our cameras have a built-in ability to respond to light levels differently. We can see it easily. In the case of film, there were clear physical differences between and within types of filmstock that directly impacted the physical ability of the film to respond to exposure to light. There were also clear chemical differences related to different processing materials and methods (primarily time and temperature, but not limited to those factors) that further defined how many of which grains of silver in the negative and paper turned darker.

In the case of electronic cameras, there are very strong parallels to chemical photography. Processing and application of the semiconductor materials used to produce the sensor have a similar effect as the physical characteristics of the filmstock. Electronic processing of the signals coming from the sensor roughly parallels the chemical processing of filmstock material. At the core, these reactions and processes are both similar and different. But it's very difficult to see how that render efforts to classify and scale usable sensitivity to light as fake, since turning the dial and changing the set sensitivity does make a difference in the final image that is very similar to the difference in negative density coming out of a processing bath.

So...different? Yes, absolutely.
Fake? Absolutely not.
It is a fact that our cameras have a built-in abil... (show quote)


Raising the ISO in a digital camera would invoke "push processing".

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Apr 27, 2019 15:04:34   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
paulf6 wrote:
Excellent explanation. I've always thought of ISO settings to be the equivalent of turning up the volume knob on a radio. -Paul


Yep, it's very much like an AM radio.

If you use Auto ISO, it's like an AM radio with *automatic gain control*. At night, listening to a "clear channel" station from 500 miles away, the signal will ebb and flow. You hear the noise come in as AGC cranks up the sensitivity to compensate, and recede when the upper atmosphere bounces more of the signal your way. Auto ISO on a camera will reduce the signal-to-noise ratio as it cranks up the gain in low light conditions. It will increase that ratio in bright light.

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Apr 27, 2019 15:08:54   #
DavidPine Loc: Fredericksburg, TX
 
BebuLamar wrote:
Before you tell me not to listen to this Tony guy let me explain. He has the controversy topic of crop sensor which caused a lot of disagreement but I don't want to talk about that. His latest claim that ISO is fake and I email him asking him to do a test of his cameras and see if they conform to the ISO standard and heard nothing back from him.
I don't see how ISO is fake because.
1. The ISO organization is real and based in Switzerland.
2. There is the ISO standard for digital still cameras and the latest is ISO 12232:2019 published Feb 2019.
3. Unless you test the cameras against this standard and they don't meet the standard then you can't claim that they are fake.
Before you tell me not to listen to this Tony guy ... (show quote)


I don't really care one way or the other.

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Apr 27, 2019 15:14:01   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
drobvit wrote:
I've seen a few of their vids. They do act like the ultimate authority in photography. Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion but they strike me as being a bit (a lot) arrogant. You can glean useful info but I find them to be off-putting. Not my cup of java...


I don't mind Tony or Chelsea — most of the time. When they're doing a training piece like, "How to use your Nikon D3400", the information is clean, straightforward, and useful. When they're reviewing a camera, they tend to fixate on certain things. When they start talking about theory or the future of the industry, they wander out of bounds.

Fro Knows Photo is the channel that usually drives me bonkers.

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Apr 27, 2019 16:06:55   #
gtheodore Loc: Fort Collins CO
 
BebuLamar wrote:
check the ISO website and purchase the standard ISO 12233:2019 Photography -- Digital still cameras -- Determination of exposure index, ISO speed ratings, standard output sensitivity, and recommended exposure index. And tell me if there is no standard.


I just read the condensed version (didn't want to pay 118eu). It looks like a set of "guidelines" that give manufacturers a bit of latitude. In one other place (can't remember where), I read that base or native iso was based on the value obtained when the sensor reached saturation. But, how does that account for the difference in base iso's - everything from 64 to 200? I don't know I'd call iso's "fake"; but, from here, they sure look like they're somewhat arbitrary.

In the end, is it a big deal? We know that, at some point, noise becomes unacceptable for a particular type of image (landscape, street, wildlife, etc.); for the photographer and, perhaps, a knowledgeable viewing audience. I know where those personal unacceptable levels are for my camera for landscapes and wildlife and I assume every photographer reaches a point in their experience level that they know as well. That still doesn't keep us from stretching or exceeding those levels when there's a "moment" we want to capture noise be damned.

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Apr 27, 2019 16:10:08   #
gtheodore Loc: Fort Collins CO
 
burkphoto wrote:
I don't mind Tony or Chelsea — most of the time. When they're doing a training piece like, "How to use your Nikon D3400", the information is clean, straightforward, and useful. When they're reviewing a camera, they tend to fixate on certain things. When they start talking about theory or the future of the industry, they wander out of bounds.

Fro Knows Photo is the channel that usually drives me bonkers.


I don't mind the Northrup's either . I think they're "mostly" OK; and I do agree with you on Fro even when he's right :-)

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Apr 27, 2019 16:14:00   #
srt101fan
 
gtheodore wrote:
I just read the condensed version (didn't want to pay 118eu). It looks like a set of "guidelines" that give manufacturers a bit of latitude. In one other place (can't remember where), I read that base or native iso was based on the value obtained when the sensor reached saturation. But, how does that account for the difference in base iso's - everything from 64 to 200? I don't know I'd call iso's "fake"; but, from here, they sure look like they're somewhat arbitrary.

In the end, is it a big deal? We know that, at some point, noise becomes unacceptable for a particular type of image (landscape, street, wildlife, etc.); for the photographer and, perhaps, a knowledgeable viewing audience. I know where those personal unacceptable levels are for my camera for landscapes and wildlife and I assume every photographer reaches a point in their experience level that they know as well. That still doesn't keep us from stretching or exceeding those levels when there's a "moment" we want to capture noise be damned.
I just read the condensed version (didn't want to ... (show quote)



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Apr 27, 2019 16:17:54   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
gtheodore wrote:
I just read the condensed version (didn't want to pay 118eu). It looks like a set of "guidelines" that give manufacturers a bit of latitude. In one other place (can't remember where), I read that base or native iso was based on the value obtained when the sensor reached saturation. But, how does that account for the difference in base iso's - everything from 64 to 200? I don't know I'd call iso's "fake"; but, from here, they sure look like they're somewhat arbitrary.

In the end, is it a big deal? We know that, at some point, noise becomes unacceptable for a particular type of image (landscape, street, wildlife, etc.); for the photographer and, perhaps, a knowledgeable viewing audience. I know where those personal unacceptable levels are for my camera for landscapes and wildlife and I assume every photographer reaches a point in their experience level that they know as well. That still doesn't keep us from stretching or exceeding those levels when there's a "moment" we want to capture noise be damned.
I just read the condensed version (didn't want to ... (show quote)


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Apr 27, 2019 16:30:30   #
hassighedgehog Loc: Corona, CA
 
I checked the manuals on both my cameras (Pentax K-50 and Panasonic Lumix ZS-60) and could not find any indication of the native ISO. I understand there is no practical difference between a calculated ISO and an actual sensed ISO. But is there a site that would tell me what the native ISO would be on my cameras?

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Apr 27, 2019 16:30:57   #
Blair Shaw Jr Loc: Dunnellon,Florida
 
AMEN BROTHER.......the D76 or the Accufine Pusher......those were the days. Glad they're gone !

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Apr 27, 2019 16:36:38   #
srt101fan
 
Blair Shaw Jr wrote:
AMEN BROTHER.......the D76 or the Accufine Pusher......those were the days. Glad they're gone !


I seem to remember using Microdol-X but can't remember why.... fine grain? 😕

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Apr 27, 2019 16:41:06   #
LMurray Loc: North Orange County, CA
 
BebuLamar wrote:
Before you tell me not to listen to this Tony guy let me explain. He has the controversy topic of crop sensor which caused a lot of disagreement but I don't want to talk about that. His latest claim that ISO is fake and I email him asking him to do a test of his cameras and see if they conform to the ISO standard and heard nothing back from him.
I don't see how ISO is fake because.
1. The ISO organization is real and based in Switzerland.
2. There is the ISO standard for digital still cameras and the latest is ISO 12232:2019 published Feb 2019.
3. Unless you test the cameras against this standard and they don't meet the standard then you can't claim that they are fake.
Before you tell me not to listen to this Tony guy ... (show quote)


Personally I still equate ASA and ISO, I pushed and pulled ASA when shooting film, and look at ISO on digital as the same, push with film grain with digital noise. As far as the Tony and Chelsea videos some are great like the 5 worst types of photographers, hilarious, others take with a grain of salt.

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Apr 27, 2019 16:59:54   #
Doc Barry Loc: Huntsville, Alabama USA
 
For those interested in really understanding how digital cameras work, I suggest reading Dr. Andy Rowlands’ book entitled “Physics of Digital Photography.” He explains such topics as ISO quite clearly.

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Apr 27, 2019 17:13:48   #
Blair Shaw Jr Loc: Dunnellon,Florida
 
srt101fan wrote:
I seem to remember using Microdol-X but can't remember why.... fine grain? 😕


Yes....it was an ultra fine grain developer for B&W and created to replace D23 by the 1960's but most of us used the Accufine or the D76 probably because of the availability of it when we were overseas during the VN War. The USO supplied us with a lot of nice stuff and I had a blast playing around with old military films and old bromide formulas.....very soft looking developers they were.

Another life time ago.

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