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Apr 23, 2019 09:06:06   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
broncomaniac wrote:
You can get PS for free if you know where to look... LR too.


The cost of free software can be likened to the cost of free sex... It's called RISK. The sites that offer free serial numbers for, or de-serialized versions of commercial software are notorious for inserting viruses and malware and ransomware into those applications. I'd rather my computer NOT have the electronic equivalent of AIDS, herpes, hepatitis A, or HPV.

An acquaintance of mine downloaded a "free" version of Photoshop CS6 a few years ago. His rather new computer began acting wonky just hours after he installed "free" Ps. He lost everything on the boot drive, and had to have it replaced. Fortunately, he had a clean backup from two weeks earlier.

People love to scoff at Apple's "walled garden" of the App Stores, or the Adobe and Microsoft subscription services. But if you ever get a bad malware infection the way that guy did, you might understand. Some of us would rather just use our machines than fight them.

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Apr 23, 2019 09:20:49   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
The Can Man wrote:
I do not need a lesson in software pricing. But if you buy Photoshop let's say at Best Buy for example. I pay for the software. Then they want money each month to keep me up to date. It's called double dipping the consumer. A lot of software manufacturer s do this.


Why would ANYONE pay for software at Best Buy (etc.) that they can get much less expensively directly from the manufacturer? The Adobe Photography Bundles DO NOT HAVE an upfront cost when you download them from Adobe. They start at $9.99 per month or $119.99 per year, and go up from there, depending upon how much space you may need on the Adobe Cloud Servers. (I use NONE, so I don't exceed the minimal amount included with the monthly subscription.)

Remember, when we pay for software, we are ONLY licensing it. If you read the EULA (End User License Agreement), you learn that you don't own anything... not even the media in a physical package you picked up at a store. You bought the right to use the software, and that's all.

With one licensing model, you have the right to use it as long as you behave (don't copy and distribute it and get caught), and as long as your computer and operating system support it and it meets your needs. With the other model, you have the right to use it as long as you pay your subscription fee. You can quit at any time and re-subscribe at any time with no penalties. As long as you subscribe, it is kept completely up to date, as long as your computer and operating system have the resources to run it.

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Apr 23, 2019 09:29:00   #
dcampbell52 Loc: Clearwater Fl
 
Scruples wrote:
That's a good point my friend. We shouldn't tell others how to shoot. All of us here on the Ugly Hedge Hog are here to learn from each other. At least that is what I hope is the case. I love to learn about photography since I am rather new. (I started in high school back in 1976). So I enjoy the threads shared here. We should strive to be good photographers learning more to become better photographers. When I'm a great photographer I will let all know. Until then,
Happy Shooting!


I started shooting film in 1957 with my Grandfather (who was a professional and took me everywhere with him). By the time I graduated from high school in 1971, I was student teacher of the school photography class and photography editor/chief photographer for the journalism staff.. That was film/darkroom days. Having said all of this, I purchased Adobe Lightroom about 6 months before they started the Cloud. It was good but could only be installed on 2 computers. When they started the Cloud, I jumped. Now I have it installed on 2 desktops here, 3 laptops here and when the wife travels from Florida back up to Pennsylvania, its installed on a desktop up there. It's very easy to control as Adobe allows either 2 or 3 active logins at a time, and if you forget to log out, it will log one or all of the logins out so you can get in.

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Apr 23, 2019 09:40:36   #
georgeretired Loc: Manitoba Canada
 
I do my processing with ELEMENTS and quite happy with the results. Look for Elements on sale. Think I picked up the current version at a Staples store in Canada last fall for about $75.00 Canadian.

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Apr 23, 2019 10:41:31   #
Vigneron
 
In addition to what I posted earlier, I would say that it is an individual decision based upon how much time you wish to devote and the learning curve for the various software packages.

I have other interest and hobbies besides photography which I just basically dabble in the pursuit of doing something creative during the long and dreary winters. I still have pictures on two cameras that I have not downloaded since last fall.

For me, I can do everything I need to do with the GIMP and or Affinity Photo. I also dabble around with some of the AKVIS software for sketches and photo to water color or painting.

Some buy very expensive cameras believing that that is the key to success and some buy the most professional quality software thinking that is the key. I do not share these opinions but individual preferences vary.

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Apr 23, 2019 10:47:26   #
PierreD
 
Vigneron wrote:
In addition to what I posted earlier, I would say that it is an individual decision based upon how much time you wish to devote and the learning curve for the various software packages.

I have other interest and hobbies besides photography which I just basically dabble in the pursuit of doing something creative during the long and dreary winters. I still have pictures on two cameras that I have not downloaded since last fall.

For me, I can do everything I need to do with the GIMP and or Affinity Photo. I also dabble around with some of the AKVIS software for sketches and photo to water color or painting.

Some buy very expensive cameras believing that that is the key to success and some buy the most professional quality software thinking that is the key. I do not share these opinions but individual preferences vary.
In addition to what I posted earlier, I would say ... (show quote)


Your point is well taken, Vigneron: Just as is the case with cameras, the best image processing software can be that which you already have!

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Apr 23, 2019 11:55:40   #
tommystrat Loc: Bigfork, Montana
 
dhk wrote:
Luminar 2018


NOT Luminar 2019! Luminar 2018 is a full-service editing program, intuitive to use and quite powerful. However, Luminar 2019 is, IMHO, a disaster! They changed the entire format and workflow of the program, made it way more cumbersome to use, and essentially created a photo categorization and management program a la Lightroom. I use PS primarily, but Luminar 2018 is a program I use for those few things PS does not do as well.

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Apr 23, 2019 11:58:49   #
tommystrat Loc: Bigfork, Montana
 
Actually, the program is Luminar 3, not Luminar 2019. Nonetheless, it is still a sketchy program.

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Apr 23, 2019 12:42:15   #
broncomaniac Loc: Lynchburg, VA
 
burkphoto wrote:
The cost of free software can be likened to the cost of free sex... It's called RISK. The sites that offer free serial numbers for, or de-serialized versions of commercial software are notorious for inserting viruses and malware and ransomware into those applications. I'd rather my computer NOT have the electronic equivalent of AIDS, herpes, hepatitis A, or HPV.

An acquaintance of mine downloaded a "free" version of Photoshop CS6 a few years ago. His rather new computer began acting wonky just hours after he installed "free" Ps. He lost everything on the boot drive, and had to have it replaced. Fortunately, he had a clean backup from two weeks earlier.

People love to scoff at Apple's "walled garden" of the App Stores, or the Adobe and Microsoft subscription services. But if you ever get a bad malware infection the way that guy did, you might understand. Some of us would rather just use our machines than fight them.
The cost of free software can be likened to the co... (show quote)


You are absolutely correct. One must go to certain lengths (and a reliable source) to avoid such a dilemma. I have.

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Apr 23, 2019 13:00:34   #
PierreD
 
broncomaniac wrote:
You are absolutely correct. One must go to certain lengths (and a reliable source) to avoid such a dilemma. I have.


I am with you, Burk: There is always a risk associated with using "free" (aka pirated) software, and often a resulting cost - plus huge potential headaches associated with having one's computer infected with malware, ransomware, viruses, and other pleasantries. In most cases the benefit is just not worth the risk. Not to mention the downright unethical and illegal sides of using pirated versions of some programs.

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Apr 23, 2019 13:46:30   #
jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ
 
amfoto1 wrote:
I think you're cost estimates for the perpetually licensed versions of PS & LR are exaggerated.

I used Photoshop since Version 4, from the mid 1990s (i.e., 12 or 13 years earlier 2008's "CS4").

After the initial purchase (I don't recall the amount, but it was a lot less then), I updated approx. every other version of Photoshop: 4, 6, CS, CS3, CS5, CS6. That meant an upgrade every three to four years and the cost was typically $250 or less for the upgrade version (which was identical to a "full version", except it wouldn't install unless you had an older version on your computer).

I started using Lightroom with the first version sometime in 2008. Because LR was "in development", I updated to most versions of it. I think I skipped one version (2 or 4?)... But this also worked out to around every thee years and the cost was $125 to $150 (except for the last, which was only $99).

I figured I was spending roughly $360 every three years for upgrades, on average... Does this amount sound familiar? In other words, over 20+ years my cost for perpetually licensed LR/PS worked out to be almost exactly the same as the $10 a month LR/PS "cloud" subscription (to get that price you must prepay a year). I suspect a lot of other long term users of Adobe software did something similar, most didn't didn't upgrade to every version (unless they were a professional reviewer, an author writing how-to books, a plug-in developer or their company was buying it for them!)

Anyway, it's a far cry from the $200 a year you estimated.

I know for certain I never paid $800 for PS. I think the highest price I ever saw on a full version was around $650 (though I didn't need it, instead bought a considerably less expensive upgrade version).

Lightroom was mostly only sold in "full versions" for $125 to $150, not offered in a lower priced upgrade version until LR6 (and, that was never promoted anywhere, kept very "well hidden" by Adobe and only available bought directly from their website).

I also prefer to control my updates (which I did regularly, between actual upgrades)... Those were plenty frequent and free, and unless you were still using a really old version where updates were no longer avail., were all that was needed to handle a new camera model. I was part of the Adobe PS and LR Beta program for a while and learned not to be too quick to install an update (I kept the Beta programs separate from my "daily use" version of the software). I wouldn't want the automatic cloud updates "pushed" to me and don't have to have the "latest and greatest". Updates may or may not be fully sorted out and I'd rather let other people deal with the problems.

Now I'm "flying for free". I'm still using PS CS6... intro'd 2012, upgraded to it in 2013 for $225, final free ACR update issued and installed in early 2017... and LR6, intro'd 2015, upgraded to it in 2016 for $99, final update 6.14 installed 2018. So I've gotten close to 6 years out of PS CS6 and 3 years out of LR6... so far.

They're able to handle the cameras I currently use now, as well as some other more recent models I may add at some point in the future. If/when I upgrade to a camera model too new for them to handle, well I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.... I'll either bite the bullet and subscribe or abandon Adobe for something else (after 20+ years as a customer).

Yeah, there are a few features in the CC versions I'd like to try and might find useful... But not enough to get me to subscribe.

I'd also contend that you don't need to upgrade Elements every two years. It sells for $100 currently, but for that you can use it as long as you like: Until Adobe adds a feature to a future version that you just gotta have... Or until you buy a new camera that's not supported by your older version of the software. But even if you do upgrade Elements every couple years, that's going to cost $50 or less per year. But there are folks out there happily using 4, 6, 8 and even 10 year old copies of Elements!

To the original poster, I'd recommend you download the free 30-day trial of Elements 2019 and take it for a test drive. It will probably do all you want for a very reasonable price. (Might want to buy one of the guide books for Elements 2019 off Amazon and have it in hand, before you download... to get the best out of your 30 days with the software.)
I think you're cost estimates for the perpetually ... (show quote)


amfoto1 wrote:
"After the initial purchase (I don't recall the amount, but it was a lot less then), I updated approx. every other version of Photoshop: 4, 6, CS,"


You started a long time ago. I started with CS5. I didn't actually pay $800 for that, but it would have cost me that much if I didn't have a student ID which actually got me CS5 Extended for $200. That said, other people that are my age wouldn't have a student ID and would have had to pay $800 back when I got my first CS version which was about 2001-2002 or so. I also paid $150 for Lightroom 3 which was the current version at that time. I bought each version up to Lightroom 5 at that same price each time. Most people would have paid the same unless they had student ID. In any case, the only exaggeration to my claims is that I used full OEM retail prices and not introductory prices, or discounted prices that some people are smart enough to wait for - some are not so smart.

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Apr 23, 2019 14:05:19   #
Scruples Loc: Brooklyn, New York
 
You forgot other nasty infectious diseases such as giardia and syphillis. Most of all RISK with software can be severe. By the way becareful of other tactics to install malware and spyware on your computer such as where'sgeorge.com.

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Apr 23, 2019 15:59:20   #
BudsOwl Loc: Upstate NY and New England
 
The Can Man wrote:
I do not need a lesson in software pricing. But if you buy Photoshop let's say at Best Buy for example. I pay for the software. Then they want money each month to keep me up to date. It's called double dipping the consumer. A lot of software manufacturer s do this.


You obviously do not know what you are talking about. You are mixing two different scenarios.
Goodbye.

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Apr 23, 2019 16:31:17   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
The Can Man wrote:
I do not need a lesson in software pricing. But if you buy Photoshop let's say at Best Buy for example. I pay for the software. Then they want money each month to keep me up to date. It's called double dipping the consumer. A lot of software manufacturer s do this.


As others have stated, this is not the way it works.

I bought the software the way you describe at Micro Center. When you buy this way, you are paying for the first year's subscription. The year starts when you install the software, not when you purchase the product cards. You then do not make any more payments until the end of that year approaches, when you can either pay for the next year or provide credit card information for monthly payments. You do not make an upfront payment plus monthly payments. Either way, though, you are paying in advance, whether for a year or for each month in that year. At this point, I still have not provided any credit card information for next year's subscription, and have not paid one additional penny for the license. I will have to do so in June, however, when this year's subscription expires.

And the amount I paid was exactly the same as it would have cost if I had gone online and initiated the subscription. I purchased a product card because we have been victims of financial fraud in the recent past, and have no interest in Adobe or anyone else having our credit card information on file. Too many "reputable" companies have promised to hold customer information safe and then failed to do so. Renewal will most likely be paid using a prepaid card of some sort.

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Apr 23, 2019 18:16:07   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
jak86094 wrote:
I think there is a misunderstanding in how the subscription software works. You don't pay a fee to "buy" the software and then a monthly subscription charge on top of that. There is no initial cost for the software...just the monthly fee. I use Lightroom Classic and Photoshop and pay a $10 monthly fee. No up front software cost. For my $10, I can use the software on multiple computers and mobile devices, get all updates including new features, and get support from the company. So it's $120 per year...period. Given what I used to spend to purchase the two applications and update them every 2-3 years, the monthly subscription isn't that much and I'm always up to date.
I think there is a misunderstanding in how the sub... (show quote)



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