Don't Clown Around With Carnival Cruise Line: Hey Hoggers, time to quit squabbling about gun control and politics. Lets "jump ship" for a moment and take a look at the near disaster...

Shutterbugsailer Loc: Staten Island NY (AKA Cincinnati by the Sea)

Hey Hoggers, time to quit squabbling about gun control and politics. Lets "jump ship" for a moment and take a look at the near disaster aboard the Carnival Triumph cruise ship. What interests me more is not whether or not Carnival Cruise lines should be sued out of existence, but why this happened and how to prevent it. One key to WHY can be found by taking a look at the stern aboard each and every cruise ship. No matter where they are docked or where they are headed, you will note that places such as Panama or Nassau are invariably written on their transoms. By registerings their ships abroad, they can circumvent US safety standards and wage scales. In the case of Carnival lines, due to the frequency or mechanical failures, I suspect that either the mechanics are paid VERY low salaries or the Inspectors are paid very HIGH bribes. What seems an obvious solution would be registering said ships in the USA requiring compliance with our stricter safety standards. This would however, price cruises out of existence were they required to pay all their help at a US merchant marine pay scale. The obvious compromise would to be allow the foreign registries, but require the ships to conform to US safety standards and inspections. Another problem with modern passenger ships is in the design of their propulsion systems. Looking back at the Titanic movie, one noted how the ships propellers were mechanically linked to giant steam engines while the ship was steered by a rudder. As they approached the iceberg, the crew attempted to avoid the collision by steering away from it and putting the engines in reverse. To do so, they first slowed down the engine revolutions to a near stall, threw around a bunch of levers and gears, and reved up the engines again, causing the propellers to rotate in the opposite direction. After the collision and the resultant flooding of the boiler rooms, they shut down the propulsion engines, but were able to keep the lights going with separate generators. In contrast, modern passenger ships run differently. Most, in fact, do away with rudders entirely. They are powered by huge diesel engines which instead of being mechanically linked to propellers, generate DC current which drives a series of pods underneith the hull which steer like an outboard motor by pivoting sideways. This, combined with sideways mounted bow and stern thrusters enable these ships to manuveur in crowded harbors, often without the aid of tugboats. Making a sudden stop from full speed is far easier. Instead of stopping the engines, throwing a series of levers, and starting up again, all the helmsman needs to do is flip a switch which reverses the polarity of the DC propulsion motors and the propellers almost instantly start rotating in the opposite direction. The downside to this modern design is that if the engines go down, so does all the ship's power. No lights, no plumbing, and no refrigeration. What was a major inconvenience with the Carnival Triumph only 150 miles from shore would have been a life threatening catastrophe with an ocean liner in the middle of the Atlantic. Obvious solution; require installation of emergency generators away from the engine room and capable of keeping refrigeration, plumbing, communications, and emergency lighting up and running. In parting, I feel the Carnival crew did the best they could with a bad situation. I do feel serving booze was a mistake. It would make those sick to the stomach even worse, and could have resulted in fights breaking out over food or use of commodes. Finally, I think that once the ship was under tow, the human waste should have been discarded bit by bit overboard. Whatever little impact it would have had on the ocean environment would have been offset by the health benefits to passengers and crew

rpavich Loc: West Virginia

Shutterbugsailer wrote:

Hey Hoggers, time to quit squabbling about gun control and politics. Lets "jump ship" for a moment and take a look at the near disaster aboard the Carnival Triumph cruise ship. What interests me more is not whether or not Carnival Cruise lines should be sued out of existence, but why this happened and how to prevent it. One key to WHY can be found by taking a look at the stern aboard each and every cruise ship. No matter where they are docked or where they are headed, you will note that places such as Panama or Nassau are invariably written on their transoms. By registerings their ships abroad, they can circumvent US safety standards and wage scales. In the case of Carnival lines, due to the frequency or mechanical failures, I suspect that either the mechanics are paid VERY low salaries or the Inspectors are paid very HIGH bribes. What seems an obvious solution would be registering said ships in the USA requiring compliance with our stricter safety standards. This would however, price cruises out of existence were they required to pay all their help at a US merchant marine pay scale. The obvious compromise would to be allow the foreign registries, but require the ships to conform to US safety standards and inspections. Another problem with modern passenger ships is in the design of their propulsion systems. Looking back at the Titanic movie, one noted how the ships propellers were mechanically linked to giant steam engines while the ship was steered by a rudder. As they approached the iceberg, the crew attempted to avoid the collision by steering away from it and putting the engines in reverse. To do so, they first slowed down the engine revolutions to a near stall, threw around a bunch of levers and gears, and reved up the engines again, causing the propellers to rotate in the opposite direction. After the collision and the resultant flooding of the boiler rooms, they shut down the propulsion engines, but were able to keep the lights going with separate generators. In contrast, modern passenger ships run differently. Most, in fact, do away with rudders entirely. They are powered by huge diesel engines which instead of being mechanically linked to propellers, generate DC current which drives a series of pods underneith the hull which steer like an outboard motor by pivoting sideways. This, combined with sideways mounted bow and stern thrusters enable these ships to manuveur in crowded harbors, often without the aid of tugboats. Making a sudden stop from full speed is far easier. Instead of stopping the engines, throwing a series of levers, and starting up again, all the helmsman needs to do is flip a switch which reverses the polarity of the DC propulsion motors and the propellers almost instantly start rotating in the opposite direction. The downside to this modern design is that if the engines go down, so does all the ship's power. No lights, no plumbing, and no refrigeration. What was a major inconvenience with the Carnival Triumph only 150 miles from shore would have been a life threatening catastrophe with an ocean liner in the middle of the Atlantic. Obvious solution; require installation of emergency generators away from the engine room and capable of keeping refrigeration, plumbing, communications, and emergency lighting up and running. In parting, I feel the Carnival crew did the best they could with a bad situation. I do feel serving booze was a mistake. It would make those sick to the stomach even worse, and could have resulted in fights breaking out over food or use of commodes. Finally, I think that once the ship was under tow, the human waste should have been discarded bit by bit overboard. Whatever little impact it would have had on the ocean environment would have been offset by the health benefits to passengers and crew

Hey Hoggers, time to quit squabbling about gun con... (show quote)

Two words:

Paragraph Break.

Shutterbugsailer Loc: Staten Island NY (AKA Cincinnati by the Sea)

You are right, Rpavich. For some reason, my computer won't let me do it

Beowulf Loc: Aquidneck Island, RI

The more obvious immediate remedy is for would-be cruise passengers to boycott, or cancel planned cruises until some of your well thought out solutions are implemented.

The several instances of engine breakdowns and outbreaks of highly contagious illnesses aboard cruise ships are indicative of slipshod engineering and inadequate health precautions.

It is very telling that the small print on cruise reservations indicate that there is no or very limited liability for the cruise lines in mishaps like this one.

HEART Loc: God's Country - COLORADO

Travelers will put up with anything...until its THEIR OWN inconvenience, money, time, or life that is affected. Once outside ones' own confines, powerlessness is in control. Price of living.

Croce Loc: Earth

Just about all the people working on cruise lines with the exception of the officers are grossly overworked, underpaid people from countries with very poor economies. Mostly from the Philippines and Romania. In service jobs such as cooking, waiters, porters, maids etc. They do a wonderful job, they are sweet, attentive and caring people. Most of them have families they support and care about in their home countries. They get to go home seldom and their stays are short. The problem with people from these lands is they are also employed as engineers, mechanics, plumbers, electricians etc., onboard and many if not most are not trained to perform at a skill level sufficient to assure safety. Like the service people, they are grossly underpaid and quartered in small, inside, rabbit hutch like cabins where sound and beneficial sleep is difficult. The result of these draconian practices in the name of cheap fares is a compromise in safety. I have spoken with many of these people and know that of which I write here. Also passengers seeking very cheap fares have a tendency to leave very cheap tips. These people derive fully half or more of their compensation from tips. I leave the conclusions up to you.

amyinsparta Loc: White county, TN

Croce wrote:

Just about all the people working on cruise lines ... (show quote)

I will add that in a lot of cases, the management take and keep their tips. Nothing so good as having slave labor, eh?

singleviking Loc: Lake Sebu Eco Park, Philippines

Shutterbugsailer wrote:

Hey Hoggers, time to quit squabbling about gun control and politics. Lets "jump ship" for a moment and take a look at the near disaster aboard the Carnival Triumph cruise ship. What interests me more is not whether or not Carnival Cruise lines should be sued out of existence, but why this happened and how to prevent it. One key to WHY can be found by taking a look at the stern aboard each and every cruise ship. No matter where they are docked or where they are headed, you will note that places such as Panama or Nassau are invariably written on their transoms. By registerings their ships abroad, they can circumvent US safety standards and wage scales. In the case of Carnival lines, due to the frequency or mechanical failures, I suspect that either the mechanics are paid VERY low salaries or the Inspectors are paid very HIGH bribes. What seems an obvious solution would be registering said ships in the USA requiring compliance with our stricter safety standards. This would however, price cruises out of existence were they required to pay all their help at a US merchant marine pay scale. The obvious compromise would to be allow the foreign registries, but require the ships to conform to US safety standards and inspections. Another problem with modern passenger ships is in the design of their propulsion systems. Looking back at the Titanic movie, one noted how the ships propellers were mechanically linked to giant steam engines while the ship was steered by a rudder. As they approached the iceberg, the crew attempted to avoid the collision by steering away from it and putting the engines in reverse. To do so, they first slowed down the engine revolutions to a near stall, threw around a bunch of levers and gears, and reved up the engines again, causing the propellers to rotate in the opposite direction. After the collision and the resultant flooding of the boiler rooms, they shut down the propulsion engines, but were able to keep the lights going with separate generators. In contrast, modern passenger ships run differently. Most, in fact, do away with rudders entirely. They are powered by huge diesel engines which instead of being mechanically linked to propellers, generate DC current which drives a series of pods underneith the hull which steer like an outboard motor by pivoting sideways. This, combined with sideways mounted bow and stern thrusters enable these ships to manuveur in crowded harbors, often without the aid of tugboats. Making a sudden stop from full speed is far easier. Instead of stopping the engines, throwing a series of levers, and starting up again, all the helmsman needs to do is flip a switch which reverses the polarity of the DC propulsion motors and the propellers almost instantly start rotating in the opposite direction. The downside to this modern design is that if the engines go down, so does all the ship's power. No lights, no plumbing, and no refrigeration. What was a major inconvenience with the Carnival Triumph only 150 miles from shore would have been a life threatening catastrophe with an ocean liner in the middle of the Atlantic. Obvious solution; require installation of emergency generators away from the engine room and capable of keeping refrigeration, plumbing, communications, and emergency lighting up and running. In parting, I feel the Carnival crew did the best they could with a bad situation. I do feel serving booze was a mistake. It would make those sick to the stomach even worse, and could have resulted in fights breaking out over food or use of commodes. Finally, I think that once the ship was under tow, the human waste should have been discarded bit by bit overboard. Whatever little impact it would have had on the ocean environment would have been offset by the health benefits to passengers and crew

Hey Hoggers, time to quit squabbling about gun con... (show quote)

Obviously, you have no concept of the engineering system for waste disposal onboard cruise ships. There actually is a sewage system onboard that seperates solids from liquids but the generators must be functioning for the filtration system and elelctric pumps to function. This fire was the absolute fault of the engine room crew and watch personel since the fire suppression system should have extinguished this fire but it didn't. Why? Was it not functioning properly or not pressurized with water? Halon is not possible as the engine room is an enclosed area and would asphixiate the on duty personell.

Second, bow and stern thrusters are the standard for most new cruise ships today. They are driven by electric motors. However, I wonder why all of the generators were designed so they were in the same room on this vessel. Safe marine engineering would be to have multiple generator rooms as our naval vessels have.

Third problem with your proposal:
To flag these ships under US registry, under the Jones Act would mandate charging a 100% duty/tax on these ships since they were not constructed in the USA.

You get what you pay for in the travel industry. You want cheap cruises, you get cheap labor and tin can ships and officers that may not be trained properly or familiar with the latest charts as was the case for that Italian cruise ship that went aground..

Mattie

I'm claustrophobic... I'd have already been passed out the first 30 minutes.... I can't even stand to be in a closet with the door shut...!!

blacks2 Loc: SF. Bay area

Croce wrote:

Just about all the people working on cruise lines ... (show quote)

I totaly agree with you, I get upset when people treat the the waiter like dirt and are not present at dinner table the last day so they of the cruise so don't have to leave a tip

UP-2-IT Loc: RED STICK, LA

Shutterbugsailer wrote:

Hey Hoggers, time to quit squabbling about gun control and politics. Lets "jump ship" for a moment and take a look at the near disaster aboard the Carnival Triumph cruise ship. What interests me more is not whether or not Carnival Cruise lines should be sued out of existence, but why this happened and how to prevent it. One key to WHY can be found by taking a look at the stern aboard each and every cruise ship. No matter where they are docked or where they are headed, you will note that places such as Panama or Nassau are invariably written on their transoms. By registerings their ships abroad, they can circumvent US safety standards and wage scales. In the case of Carnival lines, due to the frequency or mechanical failures, I suspect that either the mechanics are paid VERY low salaries or the Inspectors are paid very HIGH bribes. What seems an obvious solution would be registering said ships in the USA requiring compliance with our stricter safety standards. This would however, price cruises out of existence were they required to pay all their help at a US merchant marine pay scale. The obvious compromise would to be allow the foreign registries, but require the ships to conform to US safety standards and inspections. Another problem with modern passenger ships is in the design of their propulsion systems. Looking back at the Titanic movie, one noted how the ships propellers were mechanically linked to giant steam engines while the ship was steered by a rudder. As they approached the iceberg, the crew attempted to avoid the collision by steering away from it and putting the engines in reverse. To do so, they first slowed down the engine revolutions to a near stall, threw around a bunch of levers and gears, and reved up the engines again, causing the propellers to rotate in the opposite direction. After the collision and the resultant flooding of the boiler rooms, they shut down the propulsion engines, but were able to keep the lights going with separate generators. In contrast, modern passenger ships run differently. Most, in fact, do away with rudders entirely. They are powered by huge diesel engines which instead of being mechanically linked to propellers, generate DC current which drives a series of pods underneith the hull which steer like an outboard motor by pivoting sideways. This, combined with sideways mounted bow and stern thrusters enable these ships to manuveur in crowded harbors, often without the aid of tugboats. Making a sudden stop from full speed is far easier. Instead of stopping the engines, throwing a series of levers, and starting up again, all the helmsman needs to do is flip a switch which reverses the polarity of the DC propulsion motors and the propellers almost instantly start rotating in the opposite direction. The downside to this modern design is that if the engines go down, so does all the ship's power. No lights, no plumbing, and no refrigeration. What was a major inconvenience with the Carnival Triumph only 150 miles from shore would have been a life threatening catastrophe with an ocean liner in the middle of the Atlantic. Obvious solution; require installation of emergency generators away from the engine room and capable of keeping refrigeration, plumbing, communications, and emergency lighting up and running. In parting, I feel the Carnival crew did the best they could with a bad situation. I do feel serving booze was a mistake. It would make those sick to the stomach even worse, and could have resulted in fights breaking out over food or use of commodes. Finally, I think that once the ship was under tow, the human waste should have been discarded bit by bit overboard. Whatever little impact it would have had on the ocean environment would have been offset by the health benefits to passengers and crew

Hey Hoggers, time to quit squabbling about gun con... (show quote)

Looks like you have all the ideas, mostly incorrect but non the less ideas. Your last statement, not to be hurtfull, is absolutely stupid. Waste cannot be thrown overboard and it would not have been of benefit to anyone on the ship if it had been possible.
The ship is mechanical, mechanical things break down with no reflection on any mechanic or group of mechanics. The ships have to meet Coast Guard standards for safety before they can operate in US waters.
The people that are trying to file suit are simply feeding the sharks, lawyers. If they would read the information that they are given at time of purchasr of the tickets they would see that there are a long list of disclaimers. These are designed to prevent any law suits.

rrforster12 Loc: Leesburg Florida

blacks2 wrote:

quote=Croce Just about all the people working on ... (show quote)

Being a veteran of 66 cruises I have had the opportunity of befriending many cruise staff and can only recall one of those workers bitterly complain about their working conditions, and that worker happened to be on an American college woman on a American flagged ship sailing the waters of the Society Islands (Tahiti) about 28 years ago. Virtually every cruise staff I have had the pleasure of getting to know spoke fairly highly of their chosen career aboard ship, and that is a cross section of almost every cruise line operating over the past 40 years. It's true that most staff is recruited from areas of the world that have a low economic level, and are employed by the ship line as contract employees (usually on a 6 to 9 month contract) A significant majority of the staff members that I have come to know are consistent repeat contractors. They consider the job as their career, and tend to work their way up the ladder of job assignments to the point of becoming managers. Those that are unhappy with the life aboard ship just don't re-up after their contract period has run it's course. As far as "Tips" are concerned, virtually all of the lines have gone over to a standard rate of gratuities being added to the passengers account and distributed to the staff that services the passenger on a fairly equitable basis. On the whole, the service staff on the ships are there because they choose to be. It is true that some lines are much better on training their staff then others, and that shows up in the way a passenger is treated aboard. There are some lines that I choose not to travel on, simply because we feel that service is less then we are used to, but there are many really excellent lines that offer travel at excellent rates ( as long as one can wait and respond to the really good deals that are offered during certain times of the year and on "last minute" opportunities) so the choice to utilize only the best run lines is quite easy. We average about 3 cruises per year and tend to select only trips of 10 to 24 nights. Actually, we are scheduled to leave in April on a back to back transatlantic to Spain and then on a second line to Sicily and Italy. I hope that this info might be of help to any would-be cruisers because it really is a wonderful way to travel.

DK Loc: SD

The only cruise I have taken or will ever take is Glacier Bay one day in Alaska or a paddle wheeler on a river. No cruise ships for me. Feet on terra firma!

Trentham Loc: Staffordshire, UK

Take a look at Carnival Corporation PLC on Wikipedia, makes interesting reading as they control ten of the biggest lines. One of the lines is Costa, they certainly hit the news a while back ? I have been on eight cruises, two last year on P&O (also Carnival group) and will be on one of theirs again, next month. The staff are excellent and like previous commentators, I've not heard any of them complaining but I have heard lots of passengers whinging and looking for ways not to tip. Guns and politics goodbye.

rayford2 Loc: New Bethlehem, PA

amyinsparta wrote:

quote=Croce Just about all the people working on ... (show quote)

The wife and I always stuffed the tip in an envelope and gave it to the house boy at the end of the trip.